[B-Greek] John 3:25

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 27 21:04:31 EDT 2007


It isn't a common construction for ZHTHSIS to be found in proximity with META so it is difficult to give concrete examples.  Consider, however, Mk 8.11

Καὶ ἐξῆλθον οἱ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ ἤρξαντο συζητεῖν αὐτῷ, *** ζητοῦντες παρʼ αὐτοῦ σημεῖον *** ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, πειράζοντες αὐτόν. 

KAI ECHQON hOI FARISAIOI KAI HRCANTO SUZHTEIN AUTWi, *** ZHTOUNTES PAR' AUTOU *** SHMEION …

Here we have a different preposition which therefore changes the significance, but note what PARA contributes to it.  It signifies the source from whom they are seeking the sign.  But META carries the concept of accompaniment so we have a seeking or a dispute WITH someone.  When there is a dispute, there must be someone with whom a dispute occurs or a subject concerning which it occurs.  That which the dispute revolves around in Jn 3.25 is indicated by PERI.  It is the other party to the dispute which is designated by META.  To construe JOUDAIOU with TWN MAQHTWN would seem to scramble the sentence so as to make it virtually unintelligible.  I think you are simply trying to make it more difficult than it needs to be. 
 
george
gfsomsel
 
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----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:47:03 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:25


-- George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
I thought perhaps you had mis-spoken when you mentioned Jesus as being involved in this dispute.  It doesn't speak of a dispute of Jesus with either the disciples of John or with the Jews at this point.  The dispute was between the disciples of John and the Jews and concerned purification according to the text.  Perhaps someone might wish to read something more into it, but here we are concerned only with the text.
george
gfsomsel  I suspect that I was not clear enough again. Let me try to simplify my question. Can the phrase be understood as "There was a disagreement with a Jew [who was] from the disciples of John", as if the verse read "EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU ..."? In other words, can 
EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU PERI KAQARISMOUbe equal to EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU PERI KAQARISMOU? Sincerely,Dmitriy Reznik
----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:49:57 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:25

Dear George,
Thank you very much for your answer.

-- George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote: 
EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU PERI KAQARISMOU There is actually no "of some" missing here.  The idea is included in the EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU.  Here the genitive with [EK] is what is known a a partitive genitive signifying that it involves a part of the whole.   I understand that. Doesn't "part of the whole" in this case mean that only part, or some of the disciples of John where involved? I also think that we would be weakening the meaning here if we were to ony understand this as a "discussion."  It was a disagreement, a dispute.
I agree with you. But in this case I am not concerned with the right translation of this word. Can you say something about my suggestion to translate the phrase as ""There was a disagreement [of Jesus mentioned in previous verses] with a Jew [who was] from the disciples of John", as if the verse read "EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU ..."? Because otherwise it is not clear what was the discussion about, and what it has to do with the context.

Thanks in advance,
Dmitriy Reznik

----- Original Message ----
From: "reznik1 at juno.com" <reznik1 at juno.com>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 4:26:18 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] John 3:25

Dear scholars,
I have a question concerning John 3:25:
EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU META IOUDAIOU...
I guess usually it is understood as "There was a duscussion [between some] of the disciples of John and a Jew..."
In this case we assume that the phrase implies the missing "of some". Is there any possibility to read it as "There was a discussion [of Jesus mentioned in previous verses] with a Jew [who was] from the disciples of John", as if the verse read "EGENETO OUN ZHTHSIS META IOUDAIOU EK TWN MAQHTWN IWANNOU ..."? Because otherwise it is not clear what was the discussion about, and what it has to do with the context.

Thanks in advance,
Dmitriy Reznik

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