[B-Greek] Voice of BAPTIZOMAI & James 4:2-3
kimmo.huovila at helsinki.fi
Sat Oct 20 02:17:36 EDT 2007
My comments below.
On Friday 19 October 2007, Iver Larsen wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kimmo Huovila" <kimmo.huovila at helsinki.fi>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> Sent: 19. oktober 2007 10:23
> Subject: Voice of BAPTIZOMAI & James 4:2-3
> > Interesting discussion on voice so far. Thank you all who have
> > James 4:2-3
> > EPIQUMEITE KAI OUK ECETE, FONEUETE KAI ZHLOUTE KAI OU DUNASQE EPITUCEIN,
> > MACESQE KAI POLEMEITE, OUK ECETE DIA TO MH AITEISQAI hUMAS, AITEITE KAI OU
> > LAMBANETE DIOTI KAKWS AITEISQE, hINA EN TAIS hHDONAIS hUMWN DAPANHSHTE.
> > It seems that here is a contrast between AITEISQAI and AITEIN and KAKWS
> > AITEISQAI. They did not ask for their benefit (middle: agent and
> > the same), but they did ask (active, agent). They asked for their own
> > pleasure (KAKWS, a different sence of benefactive from the good
> > Kenneth McKay suggests that these middles "probably suggest more strongly
> > true (but unrecognized) interest (A New Syntax of the Verb in New
> > Greek, 22).
> Agreed. In the middle forms, the subject fills both the roles of agent and
benefactive. For the
> active forms, the subject may still be beneficiary in addition to agent, but
it is not in focus.
> Both middle and active forms are common in the NT.
> > This illustrates how small the distinction between middle and active can
> > Iver, do you think that the two slots a middle subject has to fill must be
> > valency slots instead of just two slots? That would explain why you hold
> > a middle BAPTIZOMAI would be the person baptizing himself (agent and
> > being the same).
> I am not sure what you mean by just two slots. If we take BAPTIZW in the
general sense of immersing,
> then the middle could be reflexive with the subject being both agent and
patient. It is just that
> this is not how the word is used in the NT when it refers to baptism. There
is always a baptizer and
> a baptizee, who are different people.
Ok. The point I am trying to make is that if with AITEW the middle can be used
with subject filling both agent and benefactive roles, why couldn't a middle
with BAPTIZW be somewhat similar. The middle could, of course, be reflexive,
but it does not have to. It seems to me that your arguments against a middle
BAPTIZOMAI are arguments against a reflexive (direct) middle, but not
arguments against a middle (indirect) with the subject filling the roles of
patient and benefactive.
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