[B-Greek] BAPTIZW/BAPTIZOMAI

Mario Trinchero mariotrinchero at gmail.com
Thu Oct 18 14:45:07 EDT 2007


2007/10/18, Mario Trinchero <mariotrinchero at gmail.com>:
>
> Da non confondere con b£ptw, *bapto*. L'esempio più chiaro che mostra il
> significato di *baptizo* è un testo del poeta e medico greco Nicander, che
> visse all'incirca nel 200 a.C. È una ricetta per fare sottaceti ed è utile
> perché usa tutte e due le parole. Nicander dice che per fare dei sottaceti,
> il vegetale deve essere prima 'bagnato' (*bapto*) in acqua bollente ed è
> poi 'battezzato' ( *baptizo*) nell'aceto. Tutti e due i verbi hanno a che
> fare con l'immergere dei vegetali in un liquido. Ma il primo è provvisorio.
> Il secondo, l'atto di battezzare il vegetale, produce un cambiamento
> permanente.
>
> Quando è usata nel Nuovo Testamento, questa parola si riferisce più spesso
> alla nostra unione ed identificazione con Cristo che al nostro battesimo in
> acqua. Per esempio *Marco 16:16*: 'Chi crede ed è battezzato sarà
> salvato'. Cristo dice che un assenso solo intellettuale non è abbastanza. Ci
> deve essere un'unione con lui, un vero cambiamento, come il vegetale al
> sottaceto! (Bible Study Magazione, James Montgomery Boice, maggio 1989)
>
>
>
>
> 2007/10/18, Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>:
> >
> > >From Iver, comments below and some parts skipped for the sake of
> > brevity.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> >
> > > On Oct 18, 2007, at 12:42 AM, Taylor Swendsen wrote:
> >
> > >> (I know the sense of the word in NT usage is cultic and not
> > used  with inanimate objects, but I
> > >> think of the example given in  Strong's Lexicon where he tries to
> > give a comparison between BAPTW
> > >> and BAPTIZW: "The clearest example that shows the meaning of  baptizo
> > (vs bapto) is a text from
> > >> the Greek poet and physician  Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It
> > is a recipe for making
> > >> pickles and is helpful because it uses both words.  Nicander
> > says  that in order to make a
> > >> pickle, the vegetable should first be  'dipped' (bapto) into boiling
> > water and then 'baptised'
> > >> (baptizo)  in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing
> > of  vegetables in a
> > >> solution. But the first is temporary. The second,  the act of
> > baptising the vegetable, produces a
> > >> permanent change.")
> >
> > IL: I doubt that the difference is between temporary and permanent, but
> > rather that BAPTW is
> > normally dipping an object in a liquid without immersing it completely,
> > while BAPTIZW refers to
> > complete immersion. One cannot get a clear picture of the sense from one
> > example. Which vegetable is
> > it? Does the cook hold on to it while (part of it) is dipped into
> > boiling water? Maybe first one
> > part is dipped and then another part before the whole thing is dumped
> > into the vinegar?
> > BAPTW is farily common in the LXX in the sense of dipping, but BAPTIZW
> > is very rare in the LXX, and
> > it quite understandably never has the meaning of "baptism" in the NT
> > sense.
> >
> > CC:
> > If Iver is right in asserting that BAPTIZW/BAPTIZOMAI is essentially
> > a transitive verb (and I don't think I'd argue with that assertion),
> > I think nevertheless that its middle usage is distinctive, rather
> > like that of LOUW/LOUOMAI "wash, bathe" (middle 38x/45 in LXX, GNT:
> > Jn 13:10 LELOUMENOS, Acts 9:37 LOUSANTES {AUTHN}, Acts 16:33 ELOUSEN
> > {AUTOUS}, Heb 10:22 LELOUSMENOI TO SWMA, 2 Pet 2;22 hUS LOUSAMENH EIS
> > KULISMON BORBOROU), KEIRW/KEIROMAI ("cut one's hair," normally middle
> > as a direct reflexive; Acts 8:32 KEIRANTOS of shearing a sheep, Acts
> > 18:18 KEIRAMENOS "have one's hair cut"; 1 Cor. 11:6 KEIRASQAI "have
> > one's hair cut"), or XURAW/XURAOMAI, regularly middle as direct
> > reflexive; Acts 21:24 XURHSONTAI, 1 Cor 11:5 2x EXURHMENHi, XURASQAI,
> > all in the sense "shave, or have shaved.").
> >
> > IL: I don't think we can jump from the semantics of LOUW to BAPTIZW and
> > suggest that the same
> > meaning differences apply to both. I have no quarrel with the middle
> > sense of LOUOMAI.
> >
> > CC:
> > As a direct reflexive the middle BAPTIZOMAI belongs in a standard
> > middle-voice category.
> >
> > IL: On what empirical basis? What is meant by "direct reflexive", when
> > BAPTIZOMAI is not reflexive
> > in any usage where it refers to baptism?
> >
> > CC:
> > If that analysis is correct, then we ought to understand the active
> > BAPTIZW in a causative sense where the patient is another person or
> > persons. Moreover, although the NT usage most commonly is in the
> > sense of ritual bathing and specifically to baptism, it can refer to
> > ritual bathing of other sorts, as in Mark 7:4 KAI AP' AGORAS EAN MH
> > BAPTISWNTAI OUK ESQIOUSIN). Cf. 2 Kgs 5:14 KAI KATEBH NAIMAN KAI
> > EBAPTISATO EN TWi IORDANHi hEPTAKI; Judith 12:7 EBAPTIZETO EN THi
> > PAREMBOLHi EPI THS PHGHS TOU hUDATOS; Sir. 34:25 BAPTIZOMENOS APO
> > NEKROU KAI PALIN hAPTOMENOS AUTOU TI WFELHSEN EN TWi LOUTRWi AUTOU?
> >
> > IL: I think it is important to look at context. In all the examples
> > listed above, the verb is
> > clearly middle and it refers to a person immersing him- og herself in
> > water for the purpose of
> > bathing or cleansing onself. They are all different from the sense of
> > baptize as used in the NT.
> > So, my point is not that the word BAPTIZW as such does not occur in a
> > middle sense. Rather, my point
> > is that when it used to refer to John's baptism or Christian baptism, it
> > never occurs in a middle
> > sense.
> >
> > > So, I am afraid I disagree with Carl and Kimmo here. EBAPTISANTO  does
> > not occur in the NT among
> > > the
> > > 77 examples of this verb and the sense suggested by Carl for
> > this  form is non-existent, unless
> > > you
> > > think of Jewish cleansing ceremonies.
> >
> > CC:
> > That's true, the aorist middle of BAPTIZOMAI doesn't appear in the
> > GNT; nevertheless, I think something comparable may be seen in 2 Kgs
> > 5:14 KAI KATEBH NAIMAN KAI EBAPTISATO EN TWi IORDANHi hEPTAKI. Does
> > Naaman here wash himself -- or is he attended by one or more
> > servants? It's curious how much like a description of a baptism this is!
> >
> >
> > IL:
> > I assume that he is immersing himself, but this is not like baptism at
> > all.
> >
> > CC:
> > Of the MP forms of BAPTIZOMAI in the GNT, the following would
> > normally be interpreted as passive:
> > Mt 3:6 EBAPTIZONTO hUP' AUTOU (John); Mk 1:5 EBAPTIZONTO hUP' AUTOU
> > (John); Jn 3:32 PAREGINONTO KAI EBAPTIZONTO (by John?) -- but even
> > here I would have to say that the subject is an agent as well as a
> > patient: they undergo the baptism by John of their own accord.
> >
> > IL: That they presumably undergo the baptism by their own accord does
> > not made them semantically an
> > agent. They are still the patient, because John is the one baptizing
> > them. You cannot have two
> > different agents for the same event.
> >
> > CC:
> > Mk 10:38 ... DUNASQE ... TO BAPTISMA hO\ EGW BAPTIZOMAI
> > BAPTISQHNAI? .. TO BAPTISMA hO\ EGW BAPTIZOMAI BAPTISQHSESQE.
> > Insofar as the "baptism" which the sons of Zebedee are to undergo is
> > one that they would not at the time of the incident undergo
> > voluntarily, they will in time do so. I have argued that the
> > accusative object hO\ of BAPTIZOMAI and BAPTISQHSESQE depends upon
> > middle semantics of these forms of BAPTIZOMAI; "baptism which I
> > undergo" as a direct reflexive.
> >
> > IL: I really cannot see how the concept of "voluntariness" has anything
> > to do with the question of
> > middle or passive sense. Here, of course, the "baptism" is a different
> > concept, meaning suffering
> > that one has to undergo. (The semantic role of patient is also called
> > the "undergoer", because it
> > undergoes an action.)
> > I see no reason to intepret these as middle rather than passive.
> >
> > CC:
> > The following are very much like Jn 3:32: no external agent is named,
> > although presumably there is one: believing and voluntary submission
> > to baptism go hand-in-hand.
> > Acts 8:12 hOTE DE EPISTEUSAN, EBAPTIZONTO ANDRES TE KAI GUNAIKES
> > Acts 8:16 BAPTISMENOI hUPHRCON EIS TO ONOMA TOU KURIOU IHSOU
> > Acts 18:8 POLLOI TWN KORINQIWN AKOUONTES EPISTEUON KAI EBAPTIZONTO
> >
> > IL: It is true that no external agent is mentioned, since that is not in
> > focus. But that does not
> > mean that there was no agent, and voluntary submission does not exclude
> > the need for an agent, nor
> > does it make the patient an agent.
> >
> > CC:
> > MK 7:4 has been dealt with above as a matter of ritual hand-washing;
> > it is clearly middle semantically.
> >
> > IL: Actually, I think that the BAPTISWNTAI here probably refers to a
> > ritual immersion of the whole
> > body, since the word used for hand washing is NIPTW in v. 3 (and
> > ANIPTOS) in v. 2. This sense is
> > similar to some of the OT examples above and is clearly middle in sense.
> >
> > CC:
> > Finally there's 1 Cor 15:29 ... TI POIHSOUSIN hOI BAPTIZOMENOI hUPER
> > TWN NEKRWN? EI hOLWS NEKROI OUK EGEIRONTAI, TI KAI BAPTIZONTAI hUPER
> > AUTWN? However strange we may deem this procedure of undergoing
> > baptism for the sake of the dead, it is certainly a matter of
> > voluntarily undergoing the process. Surely it's a matter of "those
> > who have themselves baptized." Here too the usage of BAPTIZOMAI seems
> > very much like that of LOUOMAI, KEIROMAI, and XURAOMAI -- and NIPTOMAI.
> >
> > IL: These people have probably asked to be baptized, but that does not
> > make them the agent, and I
> > maintain that the way BAPTIZW is used for John's baptism or Christian
> > baptism cannot contextually be
> > interpreted as middle.
> >
> > Iver Larsen
> >
> > ---
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> >
>
>


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