[B-Greek] Bibles

Franck Tingue Dablessedhope at aol.com
Mon Oct 1 23:51:57 EDT 2007


Hey,

I'm thinking of getting an interlinear Bible. The  Bible with verses
in English, Hebrew and Greek.
Do you guys know of any good ones. Or any other Bible that might be
better then the
interlinear.  Thank you.

-Franck Tingue-

On Sep 30, 2007, at 12:00 PM, b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: 1Jo 3:4,6 - hAMARTANW and POIEW + hAMARTIA
>       (kgraham0938 at comcast.net)
>    2. Re: 1Jo 3:4,6 - hAMARTANW and POIEW + hAMARTIA (Elizabeth Kline)
>    3. trapeza (Randall Buth)
>    4. Greek textbook question re Duff (Carl W. Conrad)
>    5. Re: Greek textbook question re Duff (frjsilver at optonline.net)
>    6. Re: Greek textbook question re Duff (Carl W. Conrad)
>    7. Re: Greek textbook question re Duff (Justin Burt)
>    8. Re: Greek textbook question re Duff (Stephen Baldwin)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:37:05 +0000
> From: kgraham0938 at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Jo 3:4,6 - hAMARTANW and POIEW + hAMARTIA
> To: Matthew Burgoon <matt at knowmercy.org>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID:
>      
> <092920071637.18701.46FE7F310004A7D30000490D2200750744C8CCC7CF030E080E 
> 9D0905 at comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> I'll take a stab at this one.
>
> in verse 4 THN hAMARTIAN is functioning as an object to the  
> descriptive participle. i.e. "Those who practice sin"  Which I take  
> as kind of a general statement describing folks reviling in their sin.
>
> While in verse 6,  hAMARTANEI is just the main verb to its subject  
> hO MENWN.
> --
> Kelton Graham
> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Matthew Burgoon <matt at knowmercy.org>
>
>> Hello
>> Firstly, thank each of you for contributing to this list; I have  
>> lurked
>> for a while now and learned quite a bit.
>>
>> I have a newby question about 1 John 3:4,6:
>> PAS hO POIWN THN hARMARTIAN ...
>> PAS hO EN AUTWi MENWN OUC hAMARTANEI ...
>>
>> The basic question is about the difference in sense between hAMARTANO
>> and POIEW + hAMARTIA, but I actually wonder more about method - how
>> would I go about answering the question for myself?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Matthew Burgoon
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 11:39:30 -0700
> From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Jo 3:4,6 - hAMARTANW and POIEW + hAMARTIA
> To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <578E4939-71C9-403C-8549-352C32BC604D at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Matthew Burgoon wrote:
>
>> I have a newby question about 1 John 3:4,6:
>> PAS hO POIWN THN hARMARTIAN ...
>> PAS hO EN AUTWi MENWN OUC hAMARTANEI ...
>>
>> The basic question is about the difference in sense between hAMARTANO
>> and POIEW + hAMARTIA,  but I actually wonder more about method - how
>> would I go about answering the question for myself?
>
> 4 ??? ? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ???
> ??????? ?????, ??? ? ???????
> ????? ? ??????.  5 ??? ?????? ???
> ??????? ?????????, ??? ???
> ???????? ???, ??? ??????? ??
> ???? ??? ?????.  6 ??? ? ?? ????
> ????? ??? ?????????? ??? ?
> ????????? ??? ??????? ?????
> ???? ??????? ?????.  7 ??????,
> ?????? ??????? ????? ? ????? ???
> ??????????? ??????? ?????, ?????
> ??????? ??????? ??????  8 ? ?????
> ??? ???????? ?? ??? ????????
> ?????, ??? ??? ????? ? ????????
> ?????????. ??? ????? ????????? ?
> ???? ??? ????, ??? ???? ?? ????
> ??? ????????.  9 ??? ? ????????????
> ?? ??? ???? ???????? ?? ?????, ???
> ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????, ???
> ?? ??????? ??????????, ??? ?? ???
> ???? ??????????.  10 ?? ?????
> ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???
> ?? ????? ??? ????????? ??? ? ??
> ????? ??????????? ??? ????? ?? ???
> ????, ??? ? ?? ?????? ??? ???????
> ?????.
>
> 4 PAS hO POIWN THN hAMARTIAN KAI THN ANOMIAN POIEI, KAI hH hAMARTIA
> ESTIN hH ANOMIA.  5 KAI OIDATE hOTI EKEINOS EFANERWQH, hINA TAS
> hAMARTIAS ARHi, KAI hAMARTIA EN AUTWi OUK ESTIN.  6 PAS hO EN AUTWi
> MENWN OUC hAMARTANEI: PAS hO hAMARTANWN OUC hEWRAKEN AUTON OUDE
> EGNWKEN AUTON.  7 TEKNIA, MHDEIS PLANATW hUMAS: hO POIWN THN
> DIKAIOSUNHN DIKAIOS ESTIN, KAQWS EKEINOS DIKAIOS ESTIN:  8 hO POIWN
> THN hAMARTIAN EK TOU DIABOLOU ESTIN, hOTI AP' ARCHS hO DIABOLOS
> hAMARTANEI. EIS TOUTO EFANERWQH hO hUIOS TOU QEOU, hINA LUSHi TA ERGA
> TOU DIABOLOU.  9 PAS hO GEGENNHMENOS EK TOU QEOU hAMARTIAN OU POIEI,
> hOTI SPERMA AUTOU EN AUTWi MENEI, KAI OU DUNATAI hAMARTANEIN, hOTI EK
> TOU QEOU GEGENNHTAI.  10 EN TOUTWi FANERA ESTIN TA TEKNA TOU QEOU KAI
> TA TEKNA TOU DIABOLOU: PAS hO MH POIWN DIKAIOSUNHN OUK ESTIN EK TOU
> QEOU, KAI hO MH AGAPWN TON ADELFON AUTOU.
>
> Martin Culy (Handbook Jn Epistles) suggests that there is no
> difference in meaning between hO POIWN THN hAMARTIAN v.4 and hO
> hAMARTANWN v.6. He notes that the verb form of ANOMIA isn't found in
> the NT. To make the rhetoric elegant and simple John used the
> paraphrastic O POIWN THN hAMARTIAN.
>
> My first inclination was to be sceptical about Culy's explanation.
> The LXX uses ANOMEW 34 times LEH  and cognate noun and adjective
> combined 334 times. Even if the LXX favored the noun/adj over the
> verb, it does not follow that ANOMEW was unknown to John or the other
> NT authors. If we are looking for a strictly semantic (not
> rhetorical) justification for the periphrastic construction hO POIWN
> THN DIKAIOSUNHN is certainly not the equivalent of hO DIKAIWN.
>
> In summary there are probably both semantic and rhetorical forces at
> work here.
>
>
> Elizabeth Kline
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:56:36 +0200
> From: "Randall Buth" <randallbuth at gmail.com>
> Subject: [B-Greek] trapeza
> To: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>,    "John Lupia"
>     <jlupia2 at yahoo.com>
> Message-ID:
>     <5680d1940709291356m162091e7uf34f8d27b0859ebf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> John egrapse
>> The earliest Christian altars (TRAPEZA) were of wood, and  
>> identical in form
> with the ordinary house
>> tables. The tables represented in the Eucharistic frescoes of the
> catacombs enable us to obtain an idea
>> of their appearance. The most ancient, as well as the most  
>> remarkable, of
> these frescoes, that of the
>> Fractio Panis found in the Capella Greca, which dates from the first
> decades of the second century,
>> shows seven persons seated on a semi-circular divan before a table  
>> of the
> same form. The verse from
>> Acts 6 could mean that deacons served at altars to help assist the  
>> priests
> during liturgy. Lexicons
>> should give all meanings and cite sources and their dates to  
>> inform us of
> both the synchronic and
>> diachronic meanings and for the diachronic give dates.>
>
> I would recommend staying away from TRAPEZA as 'altar'. In  
> antiquity tables
> were for commonly for food, like the couch with seven people around  
> the
> table that you mention, while altars were for burning offerings. A  
> large
> 'wooden altar' would be a single-use disposable item, burning up on  
> use.
> Anyway, it would be difficult to think of a "Christian altar" in  
> Acts, where
> all the tens of thousands of believers [thus, the Greek] were still  
> using a
> real altar in Acts 21:18-27, even a couple of decades later from  
> Acts 6. So
> the lexica are OK as they stand.
> A TRAPEZA is not a QYSIASTHRION, nor would lexicographers care to  
> mix them.
>
> In the other direction, tables were also made of stone. We have  
> them in the
> archaeological record in the Land. This was of special benefit to a  
> family
> because a stone utensil does not become unclean in Jewish halaxa.
>
> ERRWSO
> Randall Buth
>
> -- 
> Randall Buth, PhD
> www.biblicalulpan.org
> ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????????
> ???? ??? ??????
> ybitan at mscc.huji.ac.il
> randallbuth at gmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:43:41 -0400
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Subject: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
> To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <D69BA7D3-D072-494E-86CB-F850783558EF at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Forwarded for: charlie reich <jeremiah_ch3 at yahoo.com>
> Date: September 29, 2007 11:49:51 AM EDT
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: help
>
> i am a white male, age 42, and a christian.i started studying greek
> earlier this year using john h. dobson's book  ""learn new testament
> greek". the book has been useful, but only to a point. i can now read
> and translate some greek from its original form to english. the
> problem i have with dobson's book is that he uses too many made up
> sentences.
>
>        the other day i came across jeremy duff's book  "elements of
> new testament greek". would that be a good book to start with or
> could someone offer a better resource ?
>
>         thank you and god bless.
>
>
>                                                        charlie reich
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 01:27:06 +0000 (GMT)
> From: frjsilver at optonline.net
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
> To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Cc: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <e67ea9851d946.46fefb6a at optonline.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I'm tempted to write something harsh in response to this, so I  
> won't write anything at all.
>
> Besides, I have too much other b-greek mail (among other things) to  
> catch up with now that I and my computer are beginning to function  
> again.
>
> Father James
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad"
> Date: Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:43 pm
> Subject: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
> To: B-Greek B-Greek
>
>> Forwarded for: charlie reich
>> Date: September 29, 2007 11:49:51 AM EDT
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: help
>>
>> i am a white male, age 42, and a christian.i started studying
>> greek
>> earlier this year using john h. dobson's book ""learn new
>> testament
>> greek". the book has been useful, but only to a point. i can now
>> read
>> and translate some greek from its original form to english. the
>> problem i have with dobson's book is that he uses too many made
>> up
>> sentences.
>>
>> the other day i came across jeremy duff's book "elements
>> of
>> new testament greek". would that be a good book to start with or
>>
>> could someone offer a better resource ?
>>
>> thank you and god bless.
>>
>>
>> charlie reich
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 05:22:22 -0400
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
> To: frjsilver at optonline.net
> Cc: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <50963B70-0D51-469A-A3C5-6775C9929813 at artsci.wustl.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2007, at 9:27 PM, frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:
>
>> I'm tempted to write something harsh in response to this, so I
>> won't write anything at all.
>>
>> Besides, I have too much other b-greek mail (among other things) to
>> catch up with now that I and my computer are beginning to function
>> again.
>>
>> Father James
>
> Let me just say, speaking for myself:
>   (1) The question posed here is how anyone who knows Jeremy Duff's
> primer judges its value and whether someone can recommend a better
> resource for a beginner in Greek;
> (2) I hope that any respondent would give the same answer to a
> questioner who is not white, not Christian, and might be younger or
> older than a 42-year-old.
>
> I do think that made-up sentences for translation -- whether from
> Greek to one's native language or from one's native language to Greek
> -- are indeed the bane of inferior Greek textbooks. I think that,  
> the  
> better the textbook, the more completely its study exercises are
> based upon unadulterated or minimally adulterated original ancient
> texts, and preferably longer rather than shorter texts, i.e.
> paragraphs rather than short sentences or phrases.
>
> For Biblical Greek, one of the better reading resources I've seen is
> a relatively old little book first published in 1965: Ernest Cadman
> Colwell and Ernest W. Tune, _A Beginner's Reader/Grammar for New
> Testament Greek_ (details: http://tinyurl.com/yulzut). The very early
> made-up sentences in this reader do not seem to me to be unidiomatic
> and there are only a few pages of them; the reader starts at a very
> simple level and works at once into connected sentences and  
> paragraphs.
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Carl W. Conrad"
>> Date: Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:43 pm
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
>> To: B-Greek B-Greek
>>
>>> Forwarded for: charlie reich
>>> Date: September 29, 2007 11:49:51 AM EDT
>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subject: help
>>>
>>> i am a white male, age 42, and a christian.i started studying
>>> greek
>>> earlier this year using john h. dobson's book ""learn new
>>> testament
>>> greek". the book has been useful, but only to a point. i can now
>>> read
>>> and translate some greek from its original form to english. the
>>> problem i have with dobson's book is that he uses too many made
>>> up
>>> sentences.
>>>
>>> the other day i came across jeremy duff's book "elements
>>> of
>>> new testament greek". would that be a good book to start with or
>>>
>>> could someone offer a better resource ?
>>>
>>> thank you and god bless.
>>>
>>>
>>> charlie reich
>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:36:59 +0700
> From: Justin Burt <justin_burt at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <1010D693-50C0-4500-9D21-171DB0DD6817 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> First of all, I don't know what Father James is tempted to write, but
> relax dude!
>
> Second, I think that the best beginner Greek Grammar is "Basics of
> Biblical Greek" by William Mounce.  I have gone through it as well
> the first edition of Ray Summers book "Elements of New Testament
> Greek".  Ray Summers uses a lot of made up examples, and while it did
> help, it was not as "fun" learning Greek as William Mounce's book.
> In Mounce's book, you are using biblical passages from day 1.  I
> understand that in the 2nd edition of his book, he has also included
> some passages from the LXX as well.  I have not actually seen the 2nd
> edition so don't quote me.  I also found that after studying Mounce's
> book, it was a smooth transition into Daniel Wallace's book "Greek
> Grammar Beyond the Basics".  Also a great website for resources in
> www.teknia.com.
>
> Justin Burt
> Linguist/Bible Translator
> NTM Indonesia
> web.mac.com/justin_burt
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2007, at 4:22 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 29, 2007, at 9:27 PM, frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:
>>
>>> I'm tempted to write something harsh in response to this, so I
>>> won't write anything at all.
>>>
>>> Besides, I have too much other b-greek mail (among other things) to
>>> catch up with now that I and my computer are beginning to function
>>> again.
>>>
>>> Father James
>>
>> Let me just say, speaking for myself:
>>   (1) The question posed here is how anyone who knows Jeremy Duff's
>> primer judges its value and whether someone can recommend a better
>> resource for a beginner in Greek;
>> (2) I hope that any respondent would give the same answer to a
>> questioner who is not white, not Christian, and might be younger or
>> older than a 42-year-old.
>>
>> I do think that made-up sentences for translation -- whether from
>> Greek to one's native language or from one's native language to Greek
>> -- are indeed the bane of inferior Greek textbooks. I think that,  
>> the
>> better the textbook, the more completely its study exercises are
>> based upon unadulterated or minimally adulterated original ancient
>> texts, and preferably longer rather than shorter texts, i.e.
>> paragraphs rather than short sentences or phrases.
>>
>> For Biblical Greek, one of the better reading resources I've seen is
>> a relatively old little book first published in 1965: Ernest Cadman
>> Colwell and Ernest W. Tune, _A Beginner's Reader/Grammar for New
>> Testament Greek_ (details: http://tinyurl.com/yulzut). The very early
>> made-up sentences in this reader do not seem to me to be unidiomatic
>> and there are only a few pages of them; the reader starts at a very
>> simple level and works at once into connected sentences and
>> paragraphs.
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Carl W. Conrad"
>>> Date: Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:43 pm
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
>>> To: B-Greek B-Greek
>>>
>>>> Forwarded for: charlie reich
>>>> Date: September 29, 2007 11:49:51 AM EDT
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subject: help
>>>>
>>>> i am a white male, age 42, and a christian.i started studying
>>>> greek
>>>> earlier this year using john h. dobson's book ""learn new
>>>> testament
>>>> greek". the book has been useful, but only to a point. i can now
>>>> read
>>>> and translate some greek from its original form to english. the
>>>> problem i have with dobson's book is that he uses too many made
>>>> up
>>>> sentences.
>>>>
>>>> the other day i came across jeremy duff's book "elements
>>>> of
>>>> new testament greek". would that be a good book to start with or
>>>>
>>>> could someone offer a better resource ?
>>>>
>>>> thank you and god bless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> charlie reich
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:56:08 +0000
> From: Stephen Baldwin <stbaldwi at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek textbook question re Duff
> To: Justin Burt <justin_burt at mac.com>, <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY134-W216A5861373B23B4ADB246DDAC0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
> I am a keen amateur who started at zero.
> I think in general, Mounce's "Basics..." is the most popular book.  
> It is the textbook for the course I attended. I had started self- 
> study with Gresham Machen's book and IMHO, Mounce blew him away. I  
> also own a Wenham ("Elements...").
> If I had to own just one book (as a novice with no greek knowledge  
> at all), I'd take Mounce. Taken with all the other stuff (the CD,  
> the WEB site, the flash cards, the Graded Reader, GGBB etc.) it is  
> a system that starts from zero and takes the student a fair distance.
>
> But ideally, I think one should have a selection of grammars. The  
> layout of Mounce is very good, but it is not a complete grammar. He  
> is good on the major stuff, but skimps on MI verbs, optatives,  
> pluperfects, vocatives, and does not mention comparative/ 
> superlative adjectives etc. My teacher also urged caution when  
> Mounce speaks on aspect. I continually find "holes" in BBG and I am  
> glad I took the advice of this list and went and bought a Smyth.  
> Smyth's layout makes me weep but it is a comprehensive [to the best  
> of my knowledge] reference and the information is invariably "in  
> there somewhere" even if it takes a bit more effort. I am also glad  
> I took the advice of a b-greek member and did not buy a BDF, which,  
> for all its pedigree, is not for the novice. I have borrowed a copy  
> and struggle mightily to make head nor tail of it. (I'd own it if I  
> had limitless funds of course :-), and if ever I attain the  
> necessary competence.)
>
> Another extremely useful book (at least for me) is Mounce's  
> Morphology of Biblical Greek (MBG). At least in my edition, the  
> quality is slightly compromised by some errors -- which is  
> confusing for the beginner.
>
> Having a selection enables one to consult multiple sources when  
> questions arise; if one source doesn't answer the question, another  
> one may.
>
> Hope this helps!
> Steve
>
> Stephen Baldwin
> stbaldwi at hotmail.com
>
>> From: justin_burt at mac.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:36:59 +0700>  
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Greek  
>> textbook question re Duff> > First of all, I don't know what  
>> Father James is tempted to write, but > relax dude!> > Second, I  
>> think that the best beginner Greek Grammar is "Basics of >  
>> Biblical Greek" by William Mounce. I have gone through it as well  
>> > the first edition of Ray Summers book "Elements of New Testament  
>> > Greek". Ray Summers uses a lot of made up examples, and while it  
>> did > help, it was not as "fun" learning Greek as William Mounce's  
>> book. > In Mounce's book, you are using biblical passages from day  
>> 1. I > understand that in the 2nd edition of his book, he has also  
>> included > some passages from the LXX as well. I have not actually  
>> seen the 2nd > edition so don't quote me. I also found that after  
>> studying Mounce's > book, it was a smooth transition into Daniel  
>> Wallace's book "Greek > Grammar Beyond the Basics". Also a great  
>> website for r
>  esources in > www.teknia.com.> > Justin Burt> Linguist/Bible  
> Translator> NTM Indonesia> web.mac.com/justin_burt> > > On Sep 30,  
> 2007, at 4:22 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:> > >> > On Sep 29, 2007, at  
> 9:27 PM, frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:> >> >> I'm tempted to write  
> something harsh in response to this, so I> >> won't write anything  
> at all.> >>> >> Besides, I have too much other b-greek mail (among  
> other things) to> >> catch up with now that I and my computer are  
> beginning to function> >> again.> >>> >> Father James> >> > Let me  
> just say, speaking for myself:> > (1) The question posed here is  
> how anyone who knows Jeremy Duff's> > primer judges its value and  
> whether someone can recommend a better> > resource for a beginner  
> in Greek;> > (2) I hope that any respondent would give the same  
> answer to a> > questioner who is not white, not Christian, and  
> might be younger or> > older than a 42-year-old.> >> > I do think  
> that made-up sentences for translation -- whether from> > Greek to o
>  ne's native language or from one's native language to Greek> > --  
> are indeed the bane of inferior Greek textbooks. I think that, > >  
> the > > better the textbook, the more completely its study  
> exercises are> > based upon unadulterated or minimally adulterated  
> original ancient> > texts, and preferably longer rather than  
> shorter texts, i.e.> > paragraphs rather than short sentences or  
> phrases.> >> > For Biblical Greek, one of the better reading  
> resources I've seen is> > a relatively old little book first  
> published in 1965: Ernest Cadman> > Colwell and Ernest W. Tune, _A  
> Beginner's Reader/Grammar for New> > Testament Greek_ (details:  
> http://tinyurl.com/yulzut). The very early> > made-up sentences in  
> this reader do not seem to me to be unidiomatic> > and there are  
> only a few pages of them; the reader starts at a very> > simple  
> level and works at once into connected sentences and > >  
> paragraphs.> >> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----> >> From: "Carl  
> W. Conrad"> >> Date: Saturday,
>   September 29, 2007 7:43 pm> >> Subject: [B-Greek] Greek textbook  
> question re Duff> >> To: B-Greek B-Greek> >>> >>> Forwarded for:  
> charlie reich> >>> Date: September 29, 2007 11:49:51 AM EDT> >>>  
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org> >>> Subject: help> >>>> >>> i am a  
> white male, age 42, and a christian.i started studying> >>> greek>  
> >>> earlier this year using john h. dobson's book ""learn new> >>>  
> testament> >>> greek". the book has been useful, but only to a  
> point. i can now> >>> read> >>> and translate some greek from its  
> original form to english. the> >>> problem i have with dobson's  
> book is that he uses too many made> >>> up> >>> sentences.> >>>>  
> >>> the other day i came across jeremy duff's book "elements> >>>  
> of> >>> new testament greek". would that be a good book to start  
> with or> >>>> >>> could someone offer a better resource ?> >>>> >>>  
> thank you and god bless.> >>>> >>>> >>> charlie reich> >>>> >>> --- 
> > >>> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek> >>> B-Greek m
>  ailing list> >>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> >>> http:// 
> lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek> >>>> >> ---> >> B-Greek  
> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek> >> B-Greek mailing list>  
> >> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/ 
> listinfo/b-greek> >> > Carl W. Conrad> > Department of Classics,  
> Washington University (Ret)> >> > ---> > B-Greek home page: http:// 
> www.ibiblio.org/bgreek> > B-Greek mailing list> > B- 
> Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/ 
> listinfo/b-greek> > ---> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ 
> bgreek> B-Greek mailing list> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> http:// 
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