[B-Greek] 2 Tim 3:10-11

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Jul 17 14:56:20 EDT 2007


On Jul 17, 2007, at 11:24 AM, Steve Runge wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Thanks for the reply.  I got stuck yesterday in trying to relate  
> the two relative clauses to one another.  I also had problems  
> reading 11c 'in my head' as a correlative.  I kept reading  
> indefinite relative ('whatever'). The exclamation view of 11c makes  
> sense!  Thanks for the sanity check.

There remains the question why the KJV seemed to get it right while  
more recent translations have understood the Greek text differently.  
I think the answer is that there's some question about whether hOIOS/ 
A/ON still has an exclamatory force in Hellenistic Greek. That  
question seems to be raised in BDF §304, although the usage doesn't  
really seem questionable for Hellenistic Greek: BDAG cites Tatian  
using it. I don't see any evidence that this usage has become  
obsolete, and even if this is the only clear instance of exclamatory  
hOIOS in the GNT, it seems to me that the versions based on the  
notion that hOIOUS DIWGMOUS hUPHNEGKA means "the kind of persecutions  
I underwent" as parallel to hOIA MOI EGENETO ... strike me as a  
failure to appreciate the rhetoric of these verses.

cwc

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 4:41 AM
> To: Steve Runge
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 2 Tim 3:10-11
>
>
> On Jul 16, 2007, at 7:45 PM, Steve Runge wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I am somewhat unsure of whether my understanding of the larger  
>> complex
>> of 2 Tim 3:10-11 is valid or not.  I do not find support for it in  
>> the
>> translations, which is always a red flag.  Here is the text:
>>
>> 10 Σὺ δὲ παρηκολούθησάς μου τῇ
>> διδασκαλίᾳ, τῇ ἀγωγῇ, τῇ προθέσει,
>> τῇ πίστει, τῇ μακροθυμίᾳ, τῇ
>> ἀγάπῃ, τῇ ὑπομονῇ,
>> 11a τοῖς διωγμοῖς, τοῖς παθήμασιν,
>> 11b οἷά μοι ἐγένετο ἐν Ἀντιοχείᾳ,
>> ἐν Ἰκονίῳ, ἐν Λύστροις,
>> 11c οἵους διωγμοὺς ὑπήνεγκα
>> 11d καὶ ἐκ πάντων με ἐρρύσατο ὁ
>> κύριος.
>
> Our rule regarding citation is that when a text is given in UTF-8  
> it should also be given in BG transliteration:
>
> 10 SU DE PARHKOLOUQHSAS MOU THi DIDASKALIAi, THi AGWGHi, THi  
> PROQESEI, THi PISTEI, THi MAKROQUMIAi, THi AGAPHi, THi hUPOMONHi,  
> 11a TOIS DIWGMOIS, TOIS PAQHMASIN, 11b hOIA MOI EGENETO EN  
> ANTOICHEIAi, EN IKONIWi, EN LUSTROIS, 11c hOIOUS DIWGMOUS hUPHNEGKA  
> 11d KAI EK PANTWN ME ERRUSATO hO KURIOS.
>
>>
>> Verse 10 is a long list of all that things that Timothy is aware of
>> regarding Paul's work.  Verse 11 narrows the range of the list by
>> specifying those things that happened is a specific set of
>> geographic locations.  The locations are specified in the relative
>> clause of v. 11b, which uses hOIOS.  Porter (1992:244) identifies
>> this pronoun as a correlative relative.  The second relative clause
>> (v. 11c) uses the same relative pronoun. I would construe 11c as a
>> summary of what he has been talking about thus far, framing it in
>> the form of a topic on which the following clause (11d) will
>> comment.  I have placed what I take to be the topical frame in
>> between the asterisks.
>>
>> 11c *οἵους διωγμοὺς ὑπήνεγκα* καὶ ἐκ
>> πάντων με ἐρρύσατο ὁ κύριος.
>>
>> This raises the question of how to understand the KAI, as ascensive
>> or conjunctive.  I would take it as ascensive, with KAI EK PANTWN
>> being fronted for emphasis within 11d.  The English translation of
>> what I am understanding in Greek would be something like:
>>
>> 11c What sort of persecutions I have suffered, EVEN OUT OF ALL (OF
>> THEM) the Lord has rescued me.
>>
>> I am less concerned about the rendering of specific lexemes at this
>> point than with my understanding of the larger complex.  It seems
>> as though he is summarizing in the relative clause of 11c in order
>> to make a single point regarding vv. 10-11.  While he may have been
>> through a lot, the Lord has seen him through it all, delivering
>> him.  The fact that the verbs in vv. 11c and 11d could corroborate
>> my reading, but I am suspicious in that none of the translations I
>> consulted take it this way.  The lack of a conjunction of some kind
>> between 11b and 11c would also argue against my proposal.
>>
>> This is not a hill I am trying to die on, just a question about
>> whether something more complex might be going on.  Any thoughts you
>> might have would be appreciated.
>
> I read this over last night and pondered it a bit; I see this morning
> that nobody has yet responded to it, so I'll stick my neck out and
> say that I am personally inclined to think that KJV got this right in
> the first place, but the sequence of phrases and clauses is
> problematic -- especially in 11b-11d.
>
> KJV: 2Tim. 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of
> life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,  11
> Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium,
> at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord
> delivered me.
>
> hOIA in 11b ( {TOIS PAQHMASIN} hOIA MOI EGENETO EN ANTIOCHEIAi )is
> unquestionably a correlative pronoun -- and that's the phrase that
> Porter is actually referring to in Idioms, p. 134 -- but I'm inclined
> to think that in 11c it is exclamatory and that 11d is like a
> psalmist's response to that: "Such persections I bore up under! --
> and from them all the Lord rescued me!"
>
> BDAG s.v. hOIOS: In exclamations (Tat. 22, 1; B-D-F §304)
> οἵους διωγμοὺς ὑπήνεγκα hOIOUS DIWGMOUS
> hUPHNEGKA what persecutions I endured! 2 Ti 3:11b
>
> I do not think that the KAI is ascensive; rather I think it falls
> under BDAG hOIOS 1.b.H (eta): "η. emphasizing a fact as surprising or
> unexpected or noteworthy: and yet, and in spite of that,
> nevertheless ... "
>
> That's my inclination, but I can see how and why those who had to
> translate the passage had problems with the sequence of thought:
>
> (a) The two clauses introduced by forms of hOIOS look like they ought
> to be parallel, even though hOIA in 11c has PAQHMASIN in 11b as its
> antecedent and hOIOUS in 11c construes wtih DIWGMOUS within the
> clause; that fact should make us suspicious about this sequence. NA27/
> UBS4 put commas after every phrase in verses 10-11; I note that
> Tischendorf has a raised dot after EN LUSTROIS. Of course the
> punctuation is an 'arbitrary' editorial decision; the commas don't
> really help to clarify the articulation of this sentence but the
> raised dot in Tischendorf at least signals one understanding of that
> articulation -- the one that seems to me somewhat more probable.
>
> (b) It seems to me that there's some sort of anacoluthon in 2 Tim
> 3:10-11; if we understand hOIOUS in 11c as exclamatory, then 11c-d
> constitute, as I suggested, a sort of hymnic summation by the author
> following upon the enumeration of a career which underscores the
> ordeals suffered. I note that NET cuts the Gordian knot here and
> makes of 11c-d a rather bland statement:
>
> NET: 2Tim. 3:10   You, however, have followed my teaching, my way of
> life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, 11 as
> well as the persecutions and sufferings that happened to me in
> Antioch, in Iconium, and in Lystra. I endured these persecutions and
> the Lord delivered me from them all.
>
> This NET version, "I endured these persecutions and the Lord
> delivered me from them all.", strikes me as insipid in view of the
> Greek: something is lost between hOIOUS and "these." The translator
> has recognized that the sequence beginning with hOIOUS DIWGMOUS does
> not directly follow the longer preceding sequence ending in hOIA MOI
> EGENETO EN ANTOICHEIAi, EN IKONIWi, EN LUSTROIS -- and yet interprets
> hOIOUS as if it were no more than hOUS.
>
> So, as I noted at the outset, I am strongly inclined to think that
> the KJV translators got this one right and that more recent
> translators have fouled it up. I could certainly be wrong about this,
> but it seems to me that the articulation of 2 Tim 3:10-11 cries out
> for a more useful punctuation than a slew of commas posted at the end
> of successive phrases all the way through 11b.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
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