[B-Greek] Rev. 8:9--what died?

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 13 20:21:35 EST 2006


KAI APEQANEN TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN TWN EN THi QALASSHi TA EXONTA YUXAS KAI TO TRITON TWN PLOIWN DIEFQARHSAN

Any way you look at it this is non-standard.  TO TRITON is nom n sg while TA EXONTA is nom n pl while TWN KTISMATWN is gen n pl.  It would appear that it takes its number from TWN KTISMATWN and its case from TO TRITON.  It probably should be 

TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN TWN EN THi QALASSHi TWN EXONTWN YUXAS 

george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 7:46:05 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev. 8:9--what died?


On Nov 13, 2006, at 7:31 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:

> One big question here is how we construe EN THi QALASSHi; my
> inclination is to understand it with APEQANEN, not with TWN
> KTISMATWN. Of course this author doesn't observe standard grammar
> with any regularity in any case, but in "standard" grammar I would
> expect TWN EN THi QALASSHi if that prepositional phrase were intended
> to be limiting the creatures referred to as TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN.


On Nov 13, 2006, at 6:09 PM, Webb wrote:

> Webb: Isn't that exactly what we have? APEQANEN TO TRITWN TWN  
> KTISMATWN TWN EN THi
> QALASSHi (Rev. 8:8)
>
> Does that make you change your mind? Or have I misunderstood  
> something?

Yes, I see it is there when I look at NA27/UBS4 -- that TWN wasn't in  
the text cited in the original message (see below). That should  
indeed make a difference. But on the other hand, it's followed by TA  
ECONTA YUCAS -- which may be appositional to TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN  
but looks like another of this author's anakolouta (should be TWN  
ECONTWN YUCAS). The phrasing is surpassing curious.

>
> Insofar as I've thought about the matter, that's what I think.
>
> On Nov 13, 2006, at 5:21 PM, Webb wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> That's a fascinating interpretation of this verse, and one that
>> differs
>> dramatically from the ones that I recall hearing. Are you saying
>> that John
>> is picturing something like giant waves killing a third of the
>> creatures who
>> live on dry land? "And a third of living creatures drowned in the
>> sea"?
>> Given that John is a second-language Greek speaker, is it
>> impossible that
>> he's trying, rather clumsily, to talk about all the sea creatures
>> that had
>> YUCAS, namely the air-breathers?
>>
>> Webb Mealy
>> p.s. I sent this to you off-list by mistake. I leave it to you to
>> post your
>> reply or some other reply on-list if you wish.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl W.  
>> Conrad
>> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:20 PM
>> To: Harold Holmyard
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev. 8:9--what died?
>>
>> I think Harold has hit the nail on the head; the sense of KTISMA here
>> is simple "creature." I don't think at all that sea-creatures in
>> particular are meant here but rather that this is a swallowing up of
>> living creatures by flood waters.
>>
>> On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Harold Holmyard wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Webb,
>>>
>>> Sorry that I posted to your personal address, too.
>>>
>>>> KAI APEQANEN TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN EN THi QALASSHi, TA ECONTA
>>>> YUCAS, KAI
>>>> TO TRITON TWN PLOIWN DIEFQARSHSAN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't resist seeing TA ECONTA YUCAS as being a gloss on the
>>>> previous
>>>> phrase, indicating that he means the air breathing creatures such
>>>> as whales,
>>>> seals, sea lions, sea birds, dolphins, turtles and so on. It's
>>>> hard to see
>>>> how a fish or other gill-breathing creature has a YUCH in the
>>>> biblical
>>>> context.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any comments on this phraseology?
>>>>
>>>
>>> HH: It may be narrowing down the implication of
>>> the term KTISMA. The
>>> word can just mean "created thing."
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Harold Holmyard
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/


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