[B-Greek] Rev. 8:9--what died?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Nov 13 19:46:05 EST 2006


On Nov 13, 2006, at 7:31 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:

> One big question here is how we construe EN THi QALASSHi; my
> inclination is to understand it with APEQANEN, not with TWN
> KTISMATWN. Of course this author doesn't observe standard grammar
> with any regularity in any case, but in "standard" grammar I would
> expect TWN EN THi QALASSHi if that prepositional phrase were intended
> to be limiting the creatures referred to as TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN.


On Nov 13, 2006, at 6:09 PM, Webb wrote:

> Webb: Isn't that exactly what we have? APEQANEN TO TRITWN TWN  
> KTISMATWN TWN EN THi
> QALASSHi (Rev. 8:8)
>
> Does that make you change your mind? Or have I misunderstood  
> something?

Yes, I see it is there when I look at NA27/UBS4 -- that TWN wasn't in  
the text cited in the original message (see below). That should  
indeed make a difference. But on the other hand, it's followed by TA  
ECONTA YUCAS -- which may be appositional to TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN  
but looks like another of this author's anakolouta (should be TWN  
ECONTWN YUCAS). The phrasing is surpassing curious.

>
> Insofar as I've thought about the matter, that's what I think.
>
> On Nov 13, 2006, at 5:21 PM, Webb wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> That's a fascinating interpretation of this verse, and one that
>> differs
>> dramatically from the ones that I recall hearing. Are you saying
>> that John
>> is picturing something like giant waves killing a third of the
>> creatures who
>> live on dry land? "And a third of living creatures drowned in the
>> sea"?
>> Given that John is a second-language Greek speaker, is it
>> impossible that
>> he's trying, rather clumsily, to talk about all the sea creatures
>> that had
>> YUCAS, namely the air-breathers?
>>
>> Webb Mealy
>> p.s. I sent this to you off-list by mistake. I leave it to you to
>> post your
>> reply or some other reply on-list if you wish.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl W.  
>> Conrad
>> Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:20 PM
>> To: Harold Holmyard
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Rev. 8:9--what died?
>>
>> I think Harold has hit the nail on the head; the sense of KTISMA here
>> is simple "creature." I don't think at all that sea-creatures in
>> particular are meant here but rather that this is a swallowing up of
>> living creatures by flood waters.
>>
>> On Nov 13, 2006, at 3:57 PM, Harold Holmyard wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Webb,
>>>
>>> Sorry that I posted to your personal address, too.
>>>
>>>> KAI APEQANEN TO TRITON TWN KTISMATWN EN THi QALASSHi, TA ECONTA
>>>> YUCAS, KAI
>>>> TO TRITON TWN PLOIWN DIEFQARSHSAN
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't resist seeing TA ECONTA YUCAS as being a gloss on the
>>>> previous
>>>> phrase, indicating that he means the air breathing creatures such
>>>> as whales,
>>>> seals, sea lions, sea birds, dolphins, turtles and so on. It's
>>>> hard to see
>>>> how a fish or other gill-breathing creature has a YUCH in the
>>>> biblical
>>>> context.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any comments on this phraseology?
>>>>
>>>
>>> HH: It may be narrowing down the implication of
>>> the term KTISMA. The
>>> word can just mean "created thing."
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Harold Holmyard
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>>
>>
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/





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