[B-Greek] EILHFEN, Rev. 8:5 -- "aoristic"? FOLLOW-UP

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 13 16:32:00 EST 2006


I found the reference.  It was indeed in the _Encyclopedia of Judaism_ under "Christianity on Judaism in Ancient and Medieval Times:  The Revelation of John", vol i.71

Jesus’ discourse in John 6:30–58, in which he identifies himself as the true bread of life that must be eaten for eternal life, arouses opposition within his Jewish audience (see 6:41, 52) and even among the disciples (see 6:61). The eucharistic theology involved is obviously highly developed. The Revelation takes up the paschal imagery of the Gospel within its own version of the Johannine portrayal of eucharist as that which provokes controversy within Judaism. The document itself is written in a Semitized Greek, with self-consciously bad grammar: some errors of case and tense, for example, are below a rudimentary level, a flaunting of the grammar even an elementary student would be aware of. Such attempts at archaism can scarcely convince, when Jewish congregations are dismissed as instances of a “synagogue of Satan” (2:9; 3:9). 

Neusner, J., Neusner, J., Avery-Peck, A. J., Green, W. S., & Museum of Jewish Heritage (New York, N. Y. (2000). The encyclopedia of Judaism. 
 
george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: yancywsmith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:23:46 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EILHFEN, Rev. 8:5 -- "aoristic"?


I would dispute the claim that Greek was not the mother-tongue of the author of the Apocalypse.  Others as well have expressed the opinion that the author was deliberately writing in a archaizing Hebraic style.  Offhand, I don't remember who I was reading recently who stated this.  It may even have been in the _Encyclopedia of Judaism_.

george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: yancywsmith <yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 4:10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EILHFEN, Rev. 8:5 -- "aoristic"?


Webb,
    M. Zerwick, Biblical Greek (§289) has a note on this EILHFA and  
ERHKA (Rev 5:7; 8:5; 7:14; 19:3). The Greek of NT period papyri show  
that the aorist forms of EILHFA and EIRHKA were known. Zerwick's  
explanation of the use of perfect here is that they are not clearly  
reduplicated and that, e.g. in the case of EILHFA, speakers of Greek  
as a second language, as was the writer of Rev, would easily confuse  
EILHFA and ELABON, simply seeing them as two different ways to say  
the same thing. Angelo Lancellotti, in Sintassi Ebraica nel Greco  
dell'Apocalisse suggests further that underlying this "confusion of  
tenses" is the author's Aramaic or Hebrew mother tongue. As Greek  
developed perfects went through a process of loosing some of its  
specific senses of "state of affairs" resultant upon "past action"  
and became a simple narrative tense like the aorist. So, a certain  
amount of fuzziness might be expected, but, remarkably, most perfects  
in the New Testament can be understood in traditional ways. This has  
lead scholars to find explanations for why some perfects get used  
like aorists, as in this case for example PEPRAKA (PIPRASKW) Mt 13:43  
that otherwise has no aorist active at all; ESCHKOTA (in Mk 5:15)  
refers to a completed (an defunct state of affairs, from the point of  
view of the narrative time, previous to the narrative tense of the  
sentence, like our pluperfect). ESCON would have been understood as   
"got," so it wouldn't communicate any sense at all.

Yancy Smith

yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
5636 Wedgworth Rd.
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565




On Nov 13, 2006, at 1:45 PM, Webb wrote:

> KAI EILHFEN hO ANGELOS [AGGELOS?]  TON LIBANTWNON, KAI EGEMISEN  
> AUTON EK TOU
> PUROS... Rev. 8:5
>
>
>
> Can someone confirm for me that EILHFEN (perfect) is truly  
> equivalent to
> ELABEN (aorist) here, as ZG says? If it isn't, what nuance do we  
> get from
> the use of the perfect?
>
>
>
> Webb Mealy
>
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