[B-Greek] 2 Tim 1:3 APO
virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Wed Mar 8 12:38:46 EST 2006
Please excuse the double posting. The last post had missing words and
distorted sentence form due to a mistake I made. The correct original:
How grateful I am for this forum as well the opportunity to communicate in
various ways via email and email posts, but, alas, sometimes it's fairly
easy to use a phrase or a word; that user knowing exactly what he or she is
thinking of when they use it, that doesn't necessarily communicate to the
hearer that same thought; no fault to either party, of course.
I say this mostly as a preface to some thoughts I want to offer concerning
the word "things" but first would like to say when I wrote "I appreciate the
exchange" I was mostly thinking just that, but the physical placement of it
did indeed make it as though I was bidding adieu to the current thread. I
would like to continue if that's ok.
" Rather; the genitive cased phrase APO PROGONWN (taking it to mean "things
from what is of the forefathers or that which has it's source in the
forefathers...either or perhaps both) has as it's element or elements, not
the forefathers themselves but all of those elements that are
by what was brought to be in the forefathers."
To which you responded, Carl,
I think that the meaning you're suggesting would require something
like a substantive: TA APO TWN PROGONWN. I really don't see how APO
TWN PROGONWN as a phrase can mean anything other than "from the/my
forefathers" -- not "THINGS FROM THE/MY FOREFATHERS."
Yes, if it were referring to specific items, issues, or matters; I agree
that one would expect the above. However, I was using the word things in the
sense that is found in Websters under 2. Things indicating the real or
concrete substance of an entity as opposed to it's appearance.
Even somewhat of what's mentioned in 1. an idea, quality perceived, known,
or considered to have a separate existence. With this is mind my statement
would then sound like this:
> Rather; the genitive cased phrase APO PROGONWN (taking it to mean
> the real substance, the idea and quality known
> from what is of the forefathers or that which has it's source in the
> forefathers...either or perhaps both) has as it's element or
> elements, not
> the forefathers themselves but all of those elements that are
> by what was brought to be in the forefathers.
Notice, Carl, that Paul used not only a genitive cased phrase (which points
to the characteristics of something) but it is also anarthrous which more
often than not refers more to the qualities of that something, rather than
the something itself. If Paul were referring to the forefathers themselves
or more specifically "his" forefathers would we not expect the definite
article "TWN" as well as the genitive case MOU or EMOS as in:
TWN PROGONWN MOU..or TWN EMOS PROGONWN
In Goodwin's Grammar under 944a we find:
Substantives with a possesive pronoun take the article when they refer to
definite individuals but not otherwise.
All of this being said, I think still that the anarthrous genitive cased
phrase APO PROGONWN is Paul referring to those realities to be found in all
the fathers (concerning service to God) and he is saying to Timothy that
this characterizes his comtemporary service to God...LATREUW. Now what that
is implicitly Paul does not say in that kind of way; I think because, once
again, Carl, it is as you said:
"I think that the phrasing implies more than it says."
VN: and I would add that I think Paul wrote this very thing to encourage
Timothy to garner and serve with those very "things" that are APO PROGONWN.
Salt Lake City, Utah
More information about the B-Greek