[B-Greek] 2 Tim 1:3 APO

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Mar 7 16:42:18 EST 2006

On Mar 7, 2006, at 2:41 PM, virgil newkirk wrote:

> Carl,
> I wrote:
>   Let me say this though that I agree with you absolutely that EN
>> SUNEIDHSEI construes with LATREUW, providing a further description
>> of the
>> specifics of Paul's experience of serving God. It would say to me
>> that at
>> this stage and point of his life and service to God, that in a deep
>> and
>> sensitive part of his being (his conscience which is enlivened and
>> fine
>> tuned to what is APO PROGONWN) he is confident that his experience
>> is in
>> real step with that.
> To which you commented:
> "Then are you understanding APO PROGONWN as dependent somehow upon EN
> KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI? But no; below you say that you agree with me that
> BOTH prepositional phrases must construe with LATREUW. But the
> paragraph above makes it appear that you are somehow construing the
> two prepositional phrases as yielding a meaning in concert, as if it
> were somehow, "in/with clear conscience deriving from my forefathers."
> VN:
> No...there is nothing in my mind like: "in/with clear conscience  
> deriving
> from my forefathers."

Good. I'm glad that's clarified.

> Rather; the genitive cased phrase APO PROGONWN (taking it to mean  
> "things
> from what is of the forefathers or that which has it's source in the
> forefathers...either or perhaps both) has as it's element or  
> elements, not
> the forefathers themselves but all of those elements that are  
> characterized
> by what was brought to be in the forefathers. The "in/with a
> clear(clean)conscience" is an adverbial description of the quality  
> of action
> as construes or relates to "the service." For example:

I think that the meaning you're suggesting would require something  
like a substantive: TA APO TWN PROGONWN. I really don't see how APO  
TWN PROGONWN as a phrase can mean anything other than "from the/my  
forefathers" -- not "THINGS FROM THE/MY FOREFATHERS."

> In Exodus where the Lord instructs Moses concerning the details of the
> tabernacle, I can say with confidence that these details are all  
> things that
> represent in shadow; realities about God Himself and His dealing  
> with his
> people for His purpose.
> These (details)are APO QEOU and it appears that Moses indeed  
> QEWi in those present moments and it appears he did it all  
> correctly, but
> resultantly EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI. The clean conscience derives not  
> from the
> fact that the elements exist, but that becoming familiar with them  
> and then
> being willing and enabling oneself to carry them out; in/with a clean
> conscience, is one of the results and resulting decriptions that  
> can be
> acscribed to "the service."
> Without all the above there really is no service; let alone a clean
> conscience.
> From the NET:
> Exodus 25: 8,9
> Let them make for me a sanctuary, that I may live among them.  
> According to
> all that I am showing you--the pattern of the tabernacle and the  
> pattern of
> all it's furnishings--you must make it exactly so!
> Exodus 30:34
> And the Lord said to Moses: "Take spices, gum resin, onycha,  
> galbanum, and
> pure frankincense of equal amounts and you are to make it into an  
> incense, a
> perfume, the work of the perfumer. It is to be "finely" ground, and  
> pure and
> sacred. And you are to beat some of it "very fine," and put some of it
> before the ark of the testimony in the tent of meeting where I will  
> meet
> with you; it is to be most holy to you. And the perfume you are to  
> make, you
> must not make for yourselves using the same composition; it is to  
> be for you
> holy to the Lord. Whoever makes anything like it, to use as a  
> perfume, will
> be cut off from the people.

With all due respect, I can't see how this is at all related to the  
verse in question. I would assume that the author is talking about  
his own forefathers rather than about the forefathers of Israel.

> VN: The conscience that would guide one accordingly, does not  
> derive from
> the above, but from knowing and being familiar and committed to the  
> above.
>>>>     On Mar 5, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>>>>>> What does this phrase APO PROGONWN modify? And how
>>>>>> would it be translated? It appears on the surface to
>>>>>> be something like "from (my) parents/forefathers." Is
>>>>>> there some temporal element with this phrase, as in
>>>>>> "from the time of..."?
>> CC:
>>  I shall have to stick with the judgment of this construction that I
>>  expressed previously. I think that
>>  (a) APO PROGONWN must be construed with LATREUW;
>>  (b) EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI also construes with LATREUW, indicating  
>> the
>>  HOW of the service/worship;
>> VN: I'm with you on these previous two points..
>> CC:
>>  (c) LATREUW APO PROGONWN is a compressed expression indicating that
>>> the service/worship offered is habitual or traditional as a heritage
>>> from forefathers: "I serve/worship and continue to serve/worship
>>> habitually as did my forefathers.
>>> (d) I continue to think here that LATREUW has the function of a
>>> progressive perfect: "I have been serving continuously."
>>> AT Robertson, (Word Pictures):
>>> "Whom I serve from my forefathers (hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN). The
>>> relative ω is the dative case with LATREUW (see Ro 1:9 for this
>>> verb), progressive present (I have been serving). For PROGONWN
>>> (forefathers) see 1Ti 5:4. Paul claims a pious ancestry as in Ac
>>> 24:14, Ac 26:5, Ga 2:14, Php 3:4-7,"
>> VN: I can't be with you here though, Carl. hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN
>> for me
>> is Paul describing (here late in his life and maturity in the Lord)
>> a place
>> in the present time of his service to God that has become
>> characterized by
>> those realities which are represented by and are APO PROGONWN.
>> Can't go any
>> further on this forum except to say that APO PROGONWN means that
>> which is
>> from what is characterized by the forefathers...the ones that have
>> come to
>> be before.
> CC:
> I am no more enlightened than before about how APO PROGONWN is being
> understood in relationship to LATREUW. I just don't understand the
> sense of "those realities which are represented by and are APO
> PROGONWN." "From ancestors" I can understand in relationship to  
> Perhaps if you'd offer in a short English sentence a paraphrase of
> exactly what sense you derive from hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN
> VN:
> Ok...
> God whom I am serving; Timothy, I'm really referring to these  
> moments of my
> life right now, I'm not necessarily talking about months and years  
> ago, I'm
> speaking to this moment that He whom I am serving, that, it is with  
> what I
> have come to know was represented by and experienced by and what  
> was at home
> in our forefathers. These moments are for what we see in  
> Adam,Abraham,Moses,
> and all the others that have gone before...

I'm sorry, Virgil, but I cannot see the text of 2 Tim 1:3 in that  

> I presume Timothy with his background and faith realized what Paul was
> saying. To the Colossians he put it another way:
> And like you said, Carl, referring to hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN:
> "I think that the phrasing implies more than it says."

I must continue to question, however, whether it can possibly mean  
all that you have read in it.

> I appreciate the exchange, Carl,

Yes, I think it's gone just about as far as it can go.

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

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