[B-Greek] 2 Tim 1:3 APO

virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Tue Mar 7 14:41:48 EST 2006


I wrote:
  Let me say this though that I agree with you absolutely that EN
> SUNEIDHSEI construes with LATREUW, providing a further description
> of the
> specifics of Paul's experience of serving God. It would say to me
> that at
> this stage and point of his life and service to God, that in a deep
> and
> sensitive part of his being (his conscience which is enlivened and
> fine
> tuned to what is APO PROGONWN) he is confident that his experience
> is in
> real step with that.

To which you commented:

"Then are you understanding APO PROGONWN as dependent somehow upon EN
KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI? But no; below you say that you agree with me that
BOTH prepositional phrases must construe with LATREUW. But the
paragraph above makes it appear that you are somehow construing the
two prepositional phrases as yielding a meaning in concert, as if it
were somehow, "in/with clear conscience deriving from my forefathers."

No...there is nothing in my mind like: "in/with clear conscience deriving 
from my forefathers."

Rather; the genitive cased phrase APO PROGONWN (taking it to mean "things 
from what is of the forefathers or that which has it's source in the 
forefathers...either or perhaps both) has as it's element or elements, not 
the forefathers themselves but all of those elements that are characterized 
by what was brought to be in the forefathers. The "in/with a 
clear(clean)conscience" is an adverbial description of the quality of action 
as construes or relates to "the service." For example:

In Exodus where the Lord instructs Moses concerning the details of the 
tabernacle, I can say with confidence that these details are all things that 
represent in shadow; realities about God Himself and His dealing with his 
people for His purpose.

These (details)are APO QEOU and it appears that Moses indeed LATREUW TWi 
QEWi in those present moments and it appears he did it all correctly, but 
resultantly EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI. The clean conscience derives not from the 
fact that the elements exist, but that becoming familiar with them and then 
being willing and enabling oneself to carry them out; in/with a clean 
conscience, is one of the results and resulting decriptions that can be 
acscribed to "the service."

Without all the above there really is no service; let alone a clean 

>From the NET:

Exodus 25: 8,9
Let them make for me a sanctuary, that I may live among them. According to 
all that I am showing you--the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of 
all it's furnishings--you must make it exactly so!

Exodus 30:34
And the Lord said to Moses: "Take spices, gum resin, onycha, galbanum, and 
pure frankincense of equal amounts and you are to make it into an incense, a 
perfume, the work of the perfumer. It is to be "finely" ground, and pure and 
sacred. And you are to beat some of it "very fine," and put some of it 
before the ark of the testimony in the tent of meeting where I will meet 
with you; it is to be most holy to you. And the perfume you are to make, you 
must not make for yourselves using the same composition; it is to be for you 
holy to the Lord. Whoever makes anything like it, to use as a perfume, will 
be cut off from the people.

VN: The conscience that would guide one accordingly, does not derive from 
the above, but from knowing and being familiar and committed to the above.

>>>     On Mar 5, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>>>>> What does this phrase APO PROGONWN modify? And how
>>>>> would it be translated? It appears on the surface to
>>>>> be something like "from (my) parents/forefathers." Is
>>>>> there some temporal element with this phrase, as in
>>>>> "from the time of..."?
> CC:
>  I shall have to stick with the judgment of this construction that I
>  expressed previously. I think that
>  (a) APO PROGONWN must be construed with LATREUW;
>  (b) EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI also construes with LATREUW, indicating the
>  HOW of the service/worship;
> VN: I'm with you on these previous two points..
> CC:
>  (c) LATREUW APO PROGONWN is a compressed expression indicating that
>> the service/worship offered is habitual or traditional as a heritage
>> from forefathers: "I serve/worship and continue to serve/worship
>> habitually as did my forefathers.
>> (d) I continue to think here that LATREUW has the function of a
>> progressive perfect: "I have been serving continuously."
>> AT Robertson, (Word Pictures):
>> "Whom I serve from my forefathers (hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN). The
>> relative ω is the dative case with LATREUW (see Ro 1:9 for this
>> verb), progressive present (I have been serving). For PROGONWN
>> (forefathers) see 1Ti 5:4. Paul claims a pious ancestry as in Ac
>> 24:14, Ac 26:5, Ga 2:14, Php 3:4-7,"
> VN: I can't be with you here though, Carl. hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN
> for me
> is Paul describing (here late in his life and maturity in the Lord)
> a place
> in the present time of his service to God that has become
> characterized by
> those realities which are represented by and are APO PROGONWN.
> Can't go any
> further on this forum except to say that APO PROGONWN means that
> which is
> from what is characterized by the forefathers...the ones that have
> come to
> be before.


I am no more enlightened than before about how APO PROGONWN is being
understood in relationship to LATREUW. I just don't understand the
sense of "those realities which are represented by and are APO
PROGONWN." "From ancestors" I can understand in relationship to LATREUW.

Perhaps if you'd offer in a short English sentence a paraphrase of
exactly what sense you derive from hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN


God whom I am serving; Timothy, I'm really referring to these moments of my 
life right now, I'm not necessarily talking about months and years ago, I'm 
speaking to this moment that He whom I am serving, that, it is with what I 
have come to know was represented by and experienced by and what was at home 
in our forefathers. These moments are for what we see in Adam,Abraham,Moses, 
and all the others that have gone before...

I presume Timothy with his background and faith realized what Paul was 
saying. To the Colossians he put it another way:


And like you said, Carl, referring to hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN:

"I think that the phrasing implies more than it says."

I appreciate the exchange, Carl,

Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah 

More information about the B-Greek mailing list