[B-Greek] 2 Tim 1:3 APO

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Mar 7 12:34:07 EST 2006

On Mar 7, 2006, at 11:20 AM, virgil newkirk wrote:

> Hello Carl,
> Firstly..
>> On Mar 6, 2006, at 10:32 PM, virgil newkirk wrote:
>>> APO has two basic senses:
>>> From, as in since some time.
>>> Secondly... that which is something, that came from something.
>>> Here in verse 3 APO PROGONWN must be referring not to "since" but
>>> to the
>>> realities...the clean ones that are those things that  
>>> characterize the
>>> fathers.
> Carl, you commented:
>  "I really have no idea what sense of APO PROGONWN is being suggested
>  here. Is it that the prepositional phrase EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI is
>  being understood to characterize the PROGONOI?"
> VN: No, not at all. EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI does not characterize the
> PROGONOI; neither could it...ever, if I am understanding the grammar
> connected with it.
> Carl,
> I apologize; my wording in that last statement (quoted above your  
> comment
> and that I've just addressed)is very unclear and awkward. I was in  
> something
> of a hurry and I didn't do very well at expressing what I was  
> thinking. No
> wonder you questioned it.
>   Let me say this though that I agree with you absolutely that EN  
> SUNEIDHSEI construes with LATREUW, providing a further description  
> of the
> specifics of Paul's experience of serving God. It would say to me  
> that at
> this stage and point of his life and service to God, that in a deep  
> and
> sensitive part of his being (his conscience which is enlivened and  
> fine
> tuned to what is APO PROGONWN) he is confident that his experience  
> is in
> real step with that.

Then are you understanding APO PROGONWN as dependent somehow upon EN  
KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI? But no; below you say that you agree with me that  
BOTH prepositional phrases must construe with LATREUW. But the  
paragraph above makes it appear that you are somehow construing the  
two prepositional phrases as yielding a meaning in concert, as if it  
were somehow, "in/with clear conscience deriving from my forefathers."

>>>     On Mar 5, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>>>>> What does this phrase APO PROGONWN modify? And how
>>>>> would it be translated? It appears on the surface to
>>>>> be something like "from (my) parents/forefathers." Is
>>>>> there some temporal element with this phrase, as in
>>>>> "from the time of..."?
> CC:
>  I shall have to stick with the judgment of this construction that I
>  expressed previously. I think that
>  (a) APO PROGONWN must be construed with LATREUW;
>  (b) EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI also construes with LATREUW, indicating the
>  HOW of the service/worship;
> VN: I'm with you on these previous two points..
> CC:
>  (c) LATREUW APO PROGONWN is a compressed expression indicating that
>> the service/worship offered is habitual or traditional as a heritage
>> from forefathers: "I serve/worship and continue to serve/worship
>> habitually as did my forefathers.
>> (d) I continue to think here that LATREUW has the function of a
>> progressive perfect: "I have been serving continuously."
>> AT Robertson, (Word Pictures):
>> "Whom I serve from my forefathers (hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN). The
>> relative ω is the dative case with LATREUW (see Ro 1:9 for this
>> verb), progressive present (I have been serving). For PROGONWN
>> (forefathers) see 1Ti 5:4. Paul claims a pious ancestry as in Ac
>> 24:14, Ac 26:5, Ga 2:14, Php 3:4-7,"
> VN: I can't be with you here though, Carl. hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN  
> for me
> is Paul describing (here late in his life and maturity in the Lord)  
> a place
> in the present time of his service to God that has become  
> characterized by
> those realities which are represented by and are APO PROGONWN.  
> Can't go any
> further on this forum except to say that APO PROGONWN means that  
> which is
> from what is characterized by the forefathers...the ones that have  
> come to
> be before.

I am no more enlightened than before about how APO PROGONWN is being  
understood in relationship to LATREUW. I just don't understand the  
sense of "those realities which are represented by and are APO  
PROGONWN." "From ancestors" I can understand in relationship to LATREUW.

Perhaps if you'd offer in a short English sentence a paraphrase of  
exactly what sense you derive from hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

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