[B-Greek] 2 Tim 1:3 APO

virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Tue Mar 7 11:20:40 EST 2006

Hello Carl,


> On Mar 6, 2006, at 10:32 PM, virgil newkirk wrote:
> > APO has two basic senses:
> > From, as in since some time.
> > Secondly... that which is something, that came from something.
> > Here in verse 3 APO PROGONWN must be referring not to "since" but
> > to the
> > realities...the clean ones that are those things that characterize the
> > fathers.

Carl, you commented:

 "I really have no idea what sense of APO PROGONWN is being suggested
 here. Is it that the prepositional phrase EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI is
 being understood to characterize the PROGONOI?"

VN: No, not at all. EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI does not characterize the 
PROGONOI; neither could it...ever, if I am understanding the grammar 
connected with it.


I apologize; my wording in that last statement (quoted above your comment 
and that I've just addressed)is very unclear and awkward. I was in something 
of a hurry and I didn't do very well at expressing what I was thinking. No 
wonder you questioned it.

  Let me say this though that I agree with you absolutely that EN KAQARAi 
SUNEIDHSEI construes with LATREUW, providing a further description of the 
specifics of Paul's experience of serving God. It would say to me that at 
this stage and point of his life and service to God, that in a deep and 
sensitive part of his being (his conscience which is enlivened and fine 
tuned to what is APO PROGONWN) he is confident that his experience is in 
real step with that.

For example; perhaps it is akin to how Moses' conscience was enlivened by 
God concerning the details of how the tent of meeting (the tabernacle)was to 
be constructed and how that was then required of and guided Moses in his 
experience of those very things. Perhaps...

I would even say that EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI also has a connection with:

hMERAS; in that his conscience confirms that because he cannot help but 
remember Timothy in this way and by what he performs on his (Timothy's) 
behalf. Istm that hWs says that here is something else that is confirming my 
service in a way that my conscience tells me so.

> >     On Mar 5, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
> >
> >
> >>> What does this phrase APO PROGONWN modify? And how
> >>> would it be translated? It appears on the surface to
> >>> be something like "from (my) parents/forefathers." Is
> >>> there some temporal element with this phrase, as in
> >>> "from the time of..."?


 I shall have to stick with the judgment of this construction that I
 expressed previously. I think that

 (a) APO PROGONWN must be construed with LATREUW;
 (b) EN KAQARAi SUNEIDHSEI also construes with LATREUW, indicating the
 HOW of the service/worship;

VN: I'm with you on these previous two points..

 (c) LATREUW APO PROGONWN is a compressed expression indicating that
> the service/worship offered is habitual or traditional as a heritage
> from forefathers: "I serve/worship and continue to serve/worship
> habitually as did my forefathers.
> (d) I continue to think here that LATREUW has the function of a
> progressive perfect: "I have been serving continuously."
> AT Robertson, (Word Pictures):
> "Whom I serve from my forefathers (hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN). The
> relative ω is the dative case with LATREUW (see Ro 1:9 for this
> verb), progressive present (I have been serving). For PROGONWN
> (forefathers) see 1Ti 5:4. Paul claims a pious ancestry as in Ac
> 24:14, Ac 26:5, Ga 2:14, Php 3:4-7,"

VN: I can't be with you here though, Carl. hWi LATREUW APO PROGONWN for me 
is Paul describing (here late in his life and maturity in the Lord) a place 
in the present time of his service to God that has become characterized by 
those realities which are represented by and are APO PROGONWN. Can't go any 
further on this forum except to say that APO PROGONWN means that which is 
from what is characterized by the forefathers...the ones that have come to 
be before.

Concerning the present indicative active; again, I would suggest with 
A.T.R., that without some adverb or other adjunct the present indicative 
shouldn't be taken to be a progressive present (I have been rendering 
service) but, that it indicates that I am at this present time I'm writing 
this, rendering this service that has these specifics and qualifications.

By taking LATREUW to mean (I have been serving), it seems A.T. went against 
his own recommendations for rendering it a progressive present; although in 
his grammar on page 879 concerning the need for an adverb or adjunct to be 
present; he did say ( to be fair to him)that "usually" this is so.

I hope you don't mind me saying again..

What Carl says bears repeating... and our consideration; that being:

"I think that the phrasing implies more than it says."


Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah 

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