[B-Greek] Phil 2:17 EPI QUSIAi KAI LEITOURGIA
virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Sun Mar 5 16:44:59 EST 2006
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver at larsen.dk>
To: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at comcast.net>;
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Phil 2:17 genitive PISTEWS
> RRedden604 at aol.com wrote:
> " Snip "
" The context makes it clear that it is not Paul who is offering the
sacrifice, but the Philippians."
You then commented:
" I disagree, as does BAGD. Just the opposite is the case. In the previous
verse, Paul has just said that he has laboured
> for the Gospel - EKOPIASA. And he believes that this labour will not have
> been in vain, as long as the Philippians have
> matured in their faith and are honouring God in their lives. I recommend
> that you read the whole of Philippians chapters
> 1 and 2 to get the background. Notice especially verses like 1:6,9-10, 22,
> 25, 27, 2:15-16.
> Since Paul has just talked about his struggle for the sake of the Gospel
> to impart faith and maturity to the
> Philippians, it is most likely that the sacrifical service (to God for
> their benefit) he is talking about is his own. He
> has struggled hard in the face of many obstacles and persecutions, and he
> hopes that it will not be in vain. As long as
> his audience keep the faith and mature in it, it will not have been in
> vain. Then he can rejoice together with them as
the next verse says."
For me, you have "generalized" into ambiguity what the immediate context
that precedes verse 17 makes explicitly clear. You have made those verses
and what they say into something you refer to as Paul's "labor for the
gospel." Paul (specifically) has just referred to, (verse 16), the effort he
has expended towards the Phillipians and what it was for: his being able to
rejoice in the day of Christ concerning their standing before the Lord...yes
? and in verses 12-16, what that refers to is their stability (that they
were presently having)in both responsibility for and continued effort in
maintaining their attitude, standing, and connection to being sons of God in
their relation to Him and their relation and standing towards the world they
still lived in.
Paul was concerned about and extremely interested in their stability at the
present time and in their continuing in that kind of experience as concerns
their steps with the Lord and the world. This will help us understand then
why he wrote what he wrote next and perhaps will help us know what Paul
meant by his use of EPI followed by QUSIAi KAI LEITOURGIAi.
Paul has already, once, at least, wrote about something that could have been
affecting the Phillipians attitude in a negative way. Paul wanted to assure
them in chapter 1: 12-14 concerning his "bonds."
In verse 17 of chapter two, Paul is about to mention something else that
could discourage them and he is going to attempt to put it in such a way to
make it clear...it is just another instance of something to "rejoice about."
Paul writes, " ALLA EI KAI " which is something like...Hey ! Yes, I might be
about to be poured out (seemingly, not good !) Paul's next statement makes
it seem that it might be even worse for the Phillipians because of: EPI
QUSIAi KAI LEITOURGIAi. Here, for me, EPI, as indicating "on" their
sacrifice and service.... or Paul's possibly being poured out EPI (based on)
their sacrifice and service just doesn't make any sense, that is, provide
meaning for me considering that the context is about Paul's concern about
their attitude and stability.
It might be worse for the Phillipians because this possible pouring out
could be occuring EPI QUSIAi KAI LEITOURGIAi. If here we take EPI with the
dative to be indicating a "time at...during a period of time...at the very
period of time" of their sacrifice and service characterized by their
conviction about things concerning Paul (which most agree they had been
performing) it might stumble them. It might make them think..what ? at the
very time we're assisting our dear brother...he's going to be killed ? Paul
assures them...yes, maybe right at this very time....but I rejoice and
rejoice with you and in reference to the same TO D'AUTO..I charge you to
protect your attitude about things...Be rejoicing KAIRETE and be rejoicing
with me..KAI SUGCAIRW PASIN hUMIN.
BDAG...EPI 18. "b" with the dative, time at, or during which
Iver, you said, and I agree with you when you said,
It is also an exegetical mistake to
> ignore the immediately preceding context in order to focus on a later
> context. The reason this is a mistake is that a
> text has progression. Concepts are built up by the writer, and the reader
> should not build on what has not yet been
> said. You are not supposed to read or hear a letter being read backwards.
Iver, I also have a problem with the following when you wrote:
> > [Jeffrey Gibson:] Does regarding/ translating PISTEWS as "faithfulness"
> > help to solve the problem?
Iver you responded with:
" > No, it doesn't. The main problem as I see it is exactly the problem
raised by Mitch in the first place. What is the
> relationship between Paul's sacrificial service and the faith of the
This is not what Mitch brought up. Mitch wrote and then asked:
"ALLA EI KAI SPENDOMAI EPI THi QUSIAi KAI LEITOURGIAi
THS PISTEWS hUMWN...
I guess this is some kind of analogy or metaphor, but
I wonder what are the genitive semantic options for
THS PISTEWS hUMWN in relation to LEITOURGIAi? The
"service of your faith" seems like a pretty
straightforward translation, but it doesn't seem to
convey much meaning. Can anyone offer other options
for how this genitive might be translated?"
It seems to me another place you mis-spoke or at the least mis-represented
the text was; when you wrote:
"As long as
his audience keeps the faith and matures in it, it will not have been in
vain. Then he can rejoice together with them as
the next verse says."
I would say, no, that is not what Paul said. He did not make the condition
that he would rejoice with them in verse 17 and 18 based on their keeping
the faith & maturing in it. What he said was that "if" that "if" happened
and he was in fact poured out it was something that he joyed about and even
with them joyed about and then cemented it with them that it was "in fact"
something to be joyed about by using the imperative "KAIRETE" and then
assuring them that he would be joying about it right along with them.
Phillipians 2:17 could be understood to be saying that Paul was concerned
about their attitude being damaged by something that may in fact happen, but
just like everything in their life, was something to rejoice over...istm.
Salt Lake City, Utah
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