[B-Greek] Matt. 28:1 OYE restored to "late" vs "before"

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Apr 19 20:39:22 EDT 2006

On Apr 19, 2006, at 8:02 PM, George Young wrote:

> Dear B-Greek Group:
> I figure I mine as well venture into the discussion,
> just for the fun of it.  It is with trepidation and
> not a small measure of fear that I posit one possible
> senario to this dicussion of OYE. ... Here goes.
> Might the phrase OYE DE SABBATWN mean (*with great
> emphasis*) "And it was late in the week." Furthermore,
> might we place this phrase at the END of chapter
> 27:66?  That is to say, might OYE DE SABBATWN be the
> final statement after the guards seal the tomb and
> stand guarding it?  In which case, the wonderful
> narrative about the women at the tomb (and ch.28)
> begins with THi EPIFWSKOUSHi EIS MIAN SABBATWN (trans.
> "In the wee hours on the first day of the week...)???
> Just thinking out load.

"on the day dawning into the first day of the week" -- yes.
But OYE DE SABBATWN cannot really follow upon Mt 27:66 (hOI DE  
KOUSTWDIAS [OYE DE SABBATWN] simply for the reason that DE follows  
upon the first word of a new phrase or clause (notice hOI DE  
POREUQENTES in verse 66 of chapter 27); you might conceivably have  
but my guess is that such a temporal phrase would gravitate toward  
the front of the clause between POREUQENTES and HSFALISANTO.  
Moreover, wouldn't this securing of the tomb really need to take  
place immediately following the burial rather than "after the  
Sabbath" (i.e. very early on Sunday morning)? In terms of Matthew's  
understanding of the conspiracy to guard against a resurrection  
claim, there couldn't be that sort of interval between the burial and  
the securing of the entrance to the tomb. OYE DE SABBATWN is placed  
where it belongs at the beginning of 28:1.

> --- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Lars wrote:
>>> Attn: Carl Conrad who wrote:
>>>   Transliteration problems:
>>>>   The complication here is this particular point
>> in time of
>>>> reference is not yet "one sabbaths", it only
>> approaching "one
>>>> sabbaths".    Since we know from other scriptures
>> this is after the
>>>> sabbath the presumption for ONE SABBATHS is that
>> it is one day
>>>> after the sabbath.   But "lightening up into" is
>> a reference to
>>>> before that period.  So it is not yet "one
>> sabbaths" and thus there
>>>> is a contradiction here if "one sabbaths" is
>> believed to be the
>>>> general idiomatic reference to one day after the
>> sabbath.
>>>   CC:  EIS MIAN SABBATWN means "into day one of
>> the week," as the
>>> translation that you presented above rightly
>> indicates. Here you're
>>> apparently operating on your own understanding (or
>> misunderstanding?)
>>> of the Greek phraseology. You really ought to
>> check a lexicon (BDAG
>>> or another) for the varied usage of SABBATON in
>> the singular and
>>> plural forms.
>>>   LW:  Please note that you entirely missed the
>> critical point here.
>>>   It is not simply "into day one of the week" but
>>>   the reference to "lightening up into day one of
>> the week" that is
>>> the
>>>   critical point here.   "Lightening up" is used
>> to express something
>>>   that is approaching.  Thus by comparison we find
>> at Luke 23:54 a
>>>   similar reference  with a variation of this term
>> translated as "Now
>>>   it was Preparation, and the evening light of the
>> sabbath was
>>>   approaching."   The Greek is:
>>>   and sabbath was lighting upon
>> EPIFWSKW means "to dawn" and, by extension in the
>> somewhat peculiar
>> usage of Lk 23:54 "draw near" (where the reference
>> is to a day
>> beginning as the darkness descends). In Mt 28:1 the
>> usage is more
>> standard: THi EPIFWSKOUSHi (hHMERAi or perhaps
>> hWRAi): "at the hour
>> dawning into the first day of the week."
>>>   Since this was still preparation, the day before
>> the sabbath,
>>> lighting
>>>   upon indicates the approach of the sabbath, thus
>> at Matthew 28:1
>>>   "lightening up into one sabbath" would likely
>> express the approach
>>>   of "one sabbaths"; "one sabbaths" had not as yet
>> occurred.
>> I'm not quite sure what you mean by "one sabbaths"
>> -- that's not  
>> Greek and it's also not English. The Greek phrase
>> SABBATWN means "into (day) one of the week."
>> SABBATWN, the genitive
>> plural of SABBATA evidently here refers to the week,
>> rather than the
>> sabbath. The expression MIA SABBATWN carries over
>> from Hebrew's
>> preferential use of the cardinal numeral "one"
>> instead of the ordinal
>> numeral "first" for a numerical series.
>>>   Because we know from other reference that this
>> was indeed already
>>>   after the sabbath and on the first day after the
>> sabbath, "one
>>> sabbath"
>>>   is not well translated as a reference to the
>> entire day, but better
>>>   references the approach of a subdivision of the
>> day.  The context
>>> here
>>>   is that "one sabbaths" begins at sunrise.  As I
>> noted, since
>>> sunrise begins
>>>   a major division of the day, one of two, it
>> could be a reference
>>> to the
>>>   "morrow" (EPAURION) that begins at sunsirse and
>> since this would
>>> be the
>>>   second morrow of the day, "one sabbaths" could
>> be a reference to one
>>>   morrow past the sabbaths.
>>>   This allows Matthew's reference to "lightening
>> up into one
>>> sabbaths" to
>>>   thus be an approaching time of the day not
>> already achieved,
>>> specifically
>>>   sunrise.  Of course, it is obvious that this is
>> the first day of
>>> the week when
>>>   sunrise occurs, but "one sabbaths" is not a
>> reference to "one day
>>> after the
>>>   sabbaths" but more likely to one morrow after
>> the sabbaths.
>> Sorry, but I persist stubbornly in thinking that
>> BDAG had it right in
>> the definition for OYE that I cited in my earlier
>> response; let me
>> put it more fully:
>> "3. marker of a point of time subsequent to another
>> point of time,
>> after, w. special ref. to lateness, funct. as a
>> prep. w. gen. OYE
>> SABBATWN after the Sabbath Mt 28:1 (Aelian, VH 2,
>> 23; Polyaenus 5, 2,
>> 5 OYE THS WRAS=later than the hour [decided upon];
>> Philostrat., Vi.
>> Apoll. 4, 18, 138, 8 OYE MUSTHRIWN; 6, 10, 213, 24
>> 12, 190, 10 OYE THS MACHS.—B-D-F §164, 4; Rob. 645f;
>> ETobac, RHE 20,
>> 1924, 239–43; JMaiworm, ThGl 27, ’35, 210–16;
>> Goodsp., Probs. 43–45;
>> JGrintz, JBL 79, ’60, 32–47).—B. 961. DELG. M-M."
>>>   Again, as well in relation to DE not working
>> here as "just
>>> before", just
>>>   like "one sabbaths" has to be interpreted by the
>> context and is an
>>>   idiomatic expression,  "but one sabbaths" is in
>> idiomatic form as
>>> well and
>>>   would not thus be expected to mean exactly what
>> it represents,
>>> but rather
>>>   needs to be interpreted based on the context.
>> For that matter DE
>>> might
>>>   even function as "but" or "not" but merely
>> repersents a longer
>>> phrase that has
>>>   been completely shortened here just as "one
>> sabbaths" is short
>>> for "one day
>>>   after the sabbaths."  So you can't simply look
>>> and begin
>>>   explaining why DE isn't modifying MIA SABBATWN,
>> because there
>>> could be
>>>   several words missing here that are presumed and
>> understood
>>> though unstated.
>>>   This could be like any other idiomatic that is
>> only understood in
>>> its unique
>>>   context, just as we express 11:00 p.m. as
>> "twenty-three hundred
>>> hours" knowing
>>>   that "hundred" is not a literal reference here
>> but substitutes
>>> for a concept.
>>>   So we must basically understand the reefrence as
>> best we can,
>>> fill in the missing
>>>   words and then after that we can begin to see
>> how the rules of
>>> grammar might
>>>   apply.
>> I really do know what an idiom is. What's idiomatic
>> about MIA
> === message truncated ===
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

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