[B-Greek] Re: Comma

Jason Hare jason at jhronline.com
Wed Jul 23 02:28:18 EDT 2003


B-Greek,

I hate to be a naysayer, but I think this has once
again steered off track. This thread seems to be
losing it's "GREEK" feel and getting into a "TEXTCRIT"
mode. I would just ask that we steer back on the topic
or take it to the textcrit list. 

I know that I have no authority. I just feel that this
is getting a little off-topic.

Regards,
Jason

--- Schmuel <schmuel at escape.com> wrote:
> Hi B-Greek,
> 
> Jeff
> >> Actually, I was not really sure what I was
> looking for...but the more I
> >> research the subject...the more intricate it
> becomes....I guess what I would
> >> really like to see is an early copy of the Latin
> Vulgate with a comma written
> >> in the margin...but maybe this does not exist?
> 
> Steve Puluka wrote:
> >Dear Jeff,
> >You may want to read the excellent appendix on this
> topic in Raymond Brown's
> >commentary on the Epistles of John in the Anchor
> Bible series.  In the
> >section on the Latin Textual tradition he notes:
> "If we try to go back
> >beyond the evidence of our extant MSS, it is not
> clear that the Comma was
> >included in the text of I John when St. Peregrinus
> edited the Vulgate in
> >Spain in the fifth century.  After a stage when the
> Comma was written in the
> >margin, it was brought into the Latin text in or
> before the time of Isidore
> >of Seville (early seventh century)."
> >
> >Brown provides the list of seven Spanish
> manuscripts that contain the Comma
> >from the 7th to 9th century.  There is a footnote
> to Brooke, Epistles p
> >156-58 for a listing of post 10th century
> manuscripts.
> >
> >I would infer from the wording "beyond the
> evidence" above that the marginal
> >note here and in Metzger is an assumption based on
> the existing texts and
> >discussions in patristic literature and not an
> observation of a particular
> >manuscript.  You could research the manuscripts
> listed by Brown and Brooke
> >to confirm the existence of the marginal note.  In
> any case, Brown's
> >appendix is well worth the read.
> 
> Schmuel
> Excellent information thanks..
> 
> There are a couple of extant earlier Vulgate
> manuscripts without the Comma, 
> as I understand, probably before the marginal note
> you reference, 2 or 3 total ?
> 
> On this verse, Bruce Metzger and/or Daniel Wallace
> tend to bypass a whole 
> bunch of patristic references, most in Latin but
> some in Greek, so I would be 
> very cautious on that aspect.
> 
> And do they reference at all the Vulgate "Prologue
> to the Canonical Epistles" about which 
> John Gill says "Jerome...   complains of the
> omission of it by unfaithful interpreters."
> 
> Here is Westcott and Hort on the passage, 
> (as they are quite anti-Comma, we should not be
> surprised  by "falsely professing")
> 
> http://www.1john57.com/westcotthort.htm
> "A prologue to the Catholic Epistles, falsely
> professing to be written by Jerome,impugns the
> fidelity of Latin translators, accusing them
> especially of having placed in their text the 'three
> words' aquae sanguinis et spiritus only, and omitted
> Patris et Filii et Spiritus testimonium. This
> extraordinary production is found in the Fulda MS
> written at Capua in 546,7 (E. Ranke in his ed. p.
> viii), the biblical text of which is free from the
> interpolation, as well as in many later MSS, and
> probably belongs to the Vigilian period and
> literature. Even after Cent. VI the references to
> the inserted words are few till Cent. XI. "
> 
> Jerome's Vulgate " Prologue to the Canonical
> Epistles" is in the Gutenberg Bible at 
> the British Library
> http://prodigi.bl.uk/gutenbg/search.asp
> 
> And there is also Jerome's teacher Gregory of
> Nazianzus - 390 AD who perhaps gives
> us a precursor to the controversy that Jerome is
> referencing in the Prologue,
> since he apparently discusses the grammar of the
> passage.  
> 
> (Personally I have some skepticism about the claim
> that the Prologue is not from Jerome, IF the style
> and content fit Jerome, and the nay-sayers are in
> conjecture-land.
>  I would be especially concerned about
> circularity..."how could Jerome write that, 
>   it references the Johanine Comma,  which did not
> exist".  I did contact a couple
>   of scholars, with only cordial and unsure
> response.)
> 
> And I found a number of good sites on the Comma, one
> I highly recommended
> http://www.1john57.com/jcindex.htm 
> The Johannine Comma Archives
> 
> Shalom,
> Steven Avery
> Queens, NY
> 
> 
> schmuel at escape.com
> www.messiahresearch.com
> Messianic_Apologetic-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/ 
> 
> 
> ---
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