maqhth at hotmail.com
Wed Jan 22 23:07:31 EST 2003
>From: "Carl W. Conrad"
>George Blaisdell wrote:
> > The whole thing seems to be one sentence, and the
> > syntax of the whole is what is in question, and > especially vs 23:
> > hATINA ESTIN LOGON MEN ECONTA SOFIAS > EN EQELOQRHSKIAi > KAI
>TAPERNOFROSUNHi > KAI AFEIDIAi SOMATOS, > OUK EN TIMHi TINI PROS PLHSMONHN
> > "Whichever is a word truely having wisdom in > will-worship and bodily
>severity not in any > value toward fulfillment of the flesh.
> > Why ATINA? > Is it LOGON that has 'not any value'? > Why is SOFIAS
> > How does this finish off the thought of the whole > senthence? > Does
>MEN mean truely here? > How is LOGON related to ATINA, and how should it
> > translated, and understood?
>hATINA is neuter plural subject of ESTIN ECONTA ("which are things that
>have a specious wisdom ..."),
hATINA ESTIN LOGON MEN ECONTA SOFIAS
>George; but the participle ECONTA doesn't
>construe with LOGON (although the form could be an acc. sg. m.) but with
>the neuter plural subject hATINA which, like the hA introducing verse 22,
>refers back to the sort of rigidly ascetic precepts illustrating the
>question of verse 20 (TI DOGMATIZESQE?). Verse 23 downplays any authentic
>value in these.
OK - So then why hATINA, and not hA? What is that TINA doing? Does not
ESTIN construe hATINA as being LOGON? And how does "specious" enter in as a
modifier of "wisdom" from hATINA ESTIN LOGON MEN ECONTA SOFIAS? The hATINA
seems to say "Whichever [of these] IS a LOGON [a saying???] truely [MEN,
yes?] having wisdom..." How does specious enter here? I agree that the
three previous examples of worldly dogmatics in 2:21 are being speciously
portrayed. One translation renders 3:23 as "These things have indeed a show
of wisdom..." which is much like your rendering, but how do we get "show of
wisdom" from LOGON MEN ECONTA SOFIAS? I am really and thickly not getting
it... I do not see it in the Greek... Yet what I see is not all that clear
What is LOGON??? Neut nom sing? Or acc? And what meaning has it?
If we translate it literally: "Whichever is a saying truely having wisdom in
voluntary worship, humblemindedness, and unsparingness of the body, not in
any value/honor toward fulfilment of the flesh.", then it makes little
sense, at least to my ears, but if we are going to translate it as we think
it should mean, we need to be able to show the derivation from the Greek,
and I can't yet see how to do that...
Is the hATINA sarcastic?
>Carl W. Conrad
"Be not troubling of you the heart..."
[From the Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 1.]
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