MH PAROINON

George F. Somsel polycarp66 at aol.com
Sat Jan 18 15:02:42 EST 2003


> Since the attitude to wine drinking is like a doctrine in some churches, I
> will only comment on some of the logical flaws in the claims put forward:
> >
> > Taking things in reverse order:
> >
> > SUGKERANNUMI in 2 Macc 15.39 signifies a commingling, not an
> > alternation as has been suggested.
> 
> And why such a claim? I am looking at context and other usages of the word,
> while you present no arguments or reason.
> 
>  Although this forum is not one dealing with
> > history, a
> > proper understanding of some statements requires an understanding of the
> > historical practice.  It was the practice to mix the wine with
> > water.  This is found in Homer.
> >
> > http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.0
> 1.0217&query=line%3D%2395&word=wine
> (lines 460-470)
> 
> This was a very special incident where a drink offering was made, and
> therefore cannot be construed to mean that ordinary people customarily drank
> a mixture of wine and water.
> One cannot make a statement about a general custom from one special
> incident. I need to see more and better data for such a general claim.
> 
> > It was also the practice of the early church which has been carried
> forward
> > in the Eucharist as anyone who has partaken of the Eucharist in the
> > Anglican Communion (and presumably the Roman Catholic) is aware for the
> > wine is mixed with water.
> 
> That sections of the church in Anglophone countries have this tradition does
> not mean that such was the tradition of the early church. This is a fairly
> recent cultural tradition, I believe. In the Lutheran church in Denmark
> which I am most familiar with, they have always used wine, but I expect the
> Lutheran churches in the US would normally use fruit juice rather than wine.
> I would expect the same to be the case for the Catholic church, that is, in
> the US and UK many would probably use fruit juice, but you can be sure that
> the Catholic churches in Continental Europe use wine. I was shocked the
> first time I attended a communion service in the UK, and they did not use
> wine. It was neither Anglican nor Catholic, just British.
> 
> Iver Larsen

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0174&query=speaker%3D%231036&word=Socrates


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2397780


Not all churches in Anglophone countries us fruit juice.  It is usually
those which have a fundamentalist influence or, in the case of individuat
churches within a communion where they differ from the practice of the
communion, because of the presence of some in the congregation who have
problems with alcohol.  The Lutheran churches in the USA (various synods)
to the best of my knowledge use wine.

gfsomsel



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