God so loved the world

boyd at huxcomm.net boyd at huxcomm.net
Thu May 2 09:58:16 EDT 2002


Iver,

I appreciate your comments as always.  I'll just comment on a few 
things that you mentioned.

Iver said:
<<Concerning the other comment about hOUTWS occurring with 
hWSTE *regularly* expressing a manner other than one of high 
degree, I would like to see the evidence. I could find only once 
place in the GNT where the two occur together in the same 
sentence, namely Acts 14:1 KAI LALHSAI hOUTWS hWSTE
He spoke in such an extraordinary/powerful way that a great 
number believed.>>

Gundry and Howell put some restrictions on their search.  First, 
they were going to look for usage of "hOUTWS . . . hWSTE where 
each word in this combination is construed with a finite verb" (p. 
25).  They recognize that this only occurs in the GNT in John 3:16, 
so their material comes from outside the GNT.  They say, "To keep 
the discussion in bounds, selections come from passages in 
Demosthenes, Josephus, Philo, and Epictetus cited in lexicons for 
the meaning of high degree or translated with that understanding in 
the Loeb Classical Library" (p. 25).

Iver wrote:
<<Jn 13:25 ANAPESWN OUN EKEINOS hOUTWS EPI TO 
STHQOS TOU IHSOU LEGEI AUTWi  How did he recline/lie at 
table/lean back? He did it against the breast of Jesus. So 
hOUTWS refers forward as well as indicating a further description
of the main verb.>>

Gundry and Howell discuss this text, saying, "hOUTWS refers 
back to the beloved disciple's reclining in Jesus' bosom according 
to v. 23.  Because of the intervening material in v. 24, the reclining 
is repeated in v. 25, with a typically Johannine use of synonymous 
expression, to make clear the referent of hOUTWS" (p. 33).  

They say that John 21:1 is "the only possible prospective use of 
hOUTWS in John's gospel" (p. 33).  

Iver wrote:
<<In the case of Jn 3:16, the context also indicates that hOUTWS 
refers forward as well as describing the main verb HGAPHSEN. 
How did God love? He did it by giving his only Son.>>

Iver, one of the best things about explaining someone else's work 
is that one doesn't need to agree with it.  I simply referred Richard 
to this article because I thought he would find it interesting.  As for 
myself, I would agree with you that hOUTWS describes how God 
loved, so that the main thrust is "God loved in this way . . ."  
Although perhaps Carl's translation, "God loved the world such that 
. . ." captures the ambiguity of the Greek.

As to the question of whether this is John's editorial on Jesus' 
words or not, I don't really see how that makes a whole lot of 
difference either way.  

Jonathan Boyd
Huxley, IA




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