loan words

Joel D Kalvesmaki jdkalv at
Thu Jul 15 22:56:55 EDT 1999

>the latin liturgy makes use of a legitimately latin phrase.  that phrase
>taken into a song.  those are the facts.  There is nothing at all un-latin
>about the phrase "kyrie eleison" any more than there is anything un-english
>about the word "kindergarten" (a german loan word!)

There is a disanalogy here, since "kyrie eleison," a sentence, should not be
compared to "kindergarten," a word, but another common loan sentence or
phrase such as "caveat emptor," "id est," or "que sera sera." Although quite
common in English, no one, I suppose, would think these were English, even
*if* used for centuries, as they have.

Another way to put it, "kyrie eleison" would be Latin if and only if "kyrie"
and "eleison" were Latin. But "Kurie" is not used in Latin. And "eleison" is
not used (unlike, say, the loan word "eleemosyna" -- Polycarp ad Ph. 10:2,
Latin text). They show up nowhere but in a liturgical context, always
together, like the three loan phrases in English I mentioned above. Thus
"kyrie eleison" is a phrase used only in certain contexts. Such phrases are
generally considered to be part of the other language whence they were

Sorry, Jim, I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this, or else using a taxonomy
that the rest of us don't understand.

Joel D Kalvesmaki SignatureJoel D Kalvesmaki
      Alumnus, Classics and Philosophy
      University of Washington
      Seattle, Washington
      Matriculated, Catholic University of America
      Early Christian Studies
      Washington, D.C.

>Jim West, ThD
>email- jwest at
>web page-
>B-Greek home page:
>You are currently subscribed to b-greek as: jdkalv at
>To unsubscribe, forward this message to
>To subscribe, send a message to subscribe-b-greek at

More information about the B-Greek mailing list