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  • From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] what's the big deal?
  • Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 06:24:15 +1200

Yes...I take my hat off to you guys and the others in your guild who are
doing truly masterful work with high levels of vigilance. Who also get the
respect such deserves, by continued attendees. But, many students are still
attracted by the evangelists who offer different tangents and create
another layer of disfunction. One observation I have made as has others is
that there still is a great fevour of potential students wanting to study
Permacultre. And, consequently to fill the demand, still a number of
wannabe Pernaculture teachers.....these wanna beees just go off and teach
without a diploma in teaching and invariably with little knowledge skills
and experience...and consequently fall to the lowest common denominators
and offer students, much of what is not, without a curriculum or even
course handbook notes and resources. I have witnessed this first hand here
in NZ and in Europe. I'm sure many of us have. The outcomes of this is that
PC is seriously weakened...goes backwards and is open for abuse disrespect
and consequent dilution. So, what are we doing about it ? Thankfully
Permaculture Europe are in the middle of evolving through a great series of
7 Permaculture Teaching conferences right now. 5th soon in Spain 6th to
follow in Denmark 7th in Bulgaria. (http://permateachers.eu/) The value
from this work will I'm sure spread internationally where one day we will
see repetition of the same through other continental regions of the
world....perhaps a subject Skeeta for your upcoming continental
conference....time and place set yet ? Steve


On 12 June 2013 06:53, Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting conversation! I agree with what Skeeter is saying about the
> high quality of Permaculture education that I witness among established
> teachers here in the Western US, and high caliber of students coming out of
> ongoing and time tested trainings. I get to sample the abilities of
> students from other teacher's courses by teaching advanced courses, where I
> get a mix of students from other teachers.
>
> But every class puts the emphasis on different parts of the curriculum.
> Just here in Western Oregon I can think of courses that are very heavy on
> appropriate technology, because they're taught at a center focussed on
> that, very urban design heavy courses because they're taught in a Portland
> neighborhood, very mapping and presentation skills heavy because they're at
> a university with geography and agriculture students, or farm scale and
> soils heavy because they're taught on a working farm.
>
> Sometimes I get students from other teachers who can't read a contour map,
> or don't really understand the movement of the sun in the sky. I don't
> really fault those teachers that they don't put the focus on ensuring that
> every single student has total competency in subjects I feel important.
> Maybe those same students understand the social dynamics of village design
> far better than my students. And not every student possesses the same
> capacities to start with. For some students it's an immense challenge to
> understand basic landforms, for others it's in their blood.
>
> Also, if not used and reinforced, some skills and understanding diminish
> over time. Maybe a lot of time has passed. Not every student will continue
> the thread of learning, study and practice on their own after a PDC. You
> really need to assess someone's understanding of the curriculum on an
> individual basis based on their situation and capacities to judge the
> quality of the teacher.
>
> In my limited experience, meeting PDC graduates who don't possess
> Permaculture competency is definitely the exception!
>
> Take care,
> Andrew
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Steve Hart
> <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Hi Skeeeta....I think you answered most of your questioning yourself. Is
> it
> > natural succession that the weeds are overtaken by the pioneers ? I by in
> > large agree with all you say and others too but we still need to be
> > vigilant and have valued concern to continually evolve rigour,
> > strengthening above weakening. And, have the courage to stand up and say
> > so.
> >
> > I express my concern of "don't get it" by the many graduates I meet at
> > conferences and similar events as well as teachers I rub shoulders with.
> > Although I am presently back in NZ right now I have spent most of the
> past
> > 15 yrs in other countries where I constantly see this issue. so lets keep
> > vigilant...hope to rub shoulders with you sooon...howz the Nth American
> > Conference shapin up ? got a venue and time yet ? Steve
> >
> >
> > On 12 June 2013 06:06, Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > I am curious what you are basing your judgements on? The statement
> that
> > > many pdc graduates are not getting it. The course graduates that you
> see
> > in
> > > New Zealand? Where else are you coming into contact with pdc course
> > > graduates from other countries? Are you judging courses and people that
> > you
> > > have never met?
> > >
> > >
> > > Granted that not every person from a pdc comes away with a clear
> > > understanding of the main principles, etc. Not that they aren't
> offered
> > > the information but that some people don't get it even if served up on
> a
> > > silver spoon.
> > >
> > >
> > > I personally cross paths with hundreds of pdc graduates here in the
> USA.
> > > I would say that almost every pdc graduate I meet does "get it" . The
> > > principes and ethics I mean. Also they do get the pc methodology. PC
> > does
> > > have a methodology in case you haven't noticed.
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with April, Darren Doherty and others who have stated on this
> > list
> > > serve that permaculture design courses can be taught a number of ways
> and
> > > that each has a place. Residential intensives, weekend courses and
> > on-line
> > > courses. I used to be very biased myself on residential courses and
> > > thought that weekend courses could not be as good. But in the last two
> > > years I have taught two weekend pdcs and was very satisfied with the
> > > outcome (and so were the students). So now I will eat my hat and say
> > that
> > > weekend courses can be very good and the students can gell as a team.
> > There
> > > certainly can be weekend pdcs that turn out a better product than some
> of
> > > the residential pdcs.
> > >
> > > We all know that pdcs vary a lot in quality. There are poor ones,
> > > mediocre ones, good ones and outstanding ones. Mostly these are
> > dependent
> > > on the teacher(s).
> > >
> > > I would say that this applies to residentials, weekend and on-line
> > > courses. Prospective students should definitely do their research.
> Buyer
> > > beware. From my experience in the USA there aren't that many poor
> > teachers
> > > offerings pdcs and there are a lot of good and exceptional ones. The
> > latter
> > > tend to get the bigger student turnouts because of their good
> reputation.
> > >
> > >
> > > How do we (the pc movement) do better? I think that going to pc
> > > convergences where we can rub elbows, meet each other, sample each
> > others'
> > > presentations, and talk about each other is a big part of our internal
> > > quality control. I highly recommend that pdc teachers and would-be
> > > teachers (and would-be students) attend pc gatherings in their region
> and
> > > in other regions.
> > >
> > >
> > > Remembering our time in New Zealand together. Glad you are still in the
> > > trenches,
> > >
> > >
> > > Gradual progress,
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Steve Hart <stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>
> > > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:31 AM
> > > Subject: [permaculture] what's the big deal?
> > >
> > >
> > > what's the big deal?....is part of the real question and the
> > problem...the
> > > reality is that many graduates of whatever course or learning in
> > > Permaculture still don't get it....that PC is a design philosophy based
> > on
> > > principles. It is not a set of recipes nor a methodology...that is the
> > big
> > > deal. So those of us who give a damn rather than putting our ego and
> > > pockets first need to continually ask what we are offering those in
> > search
> > > of solutions that what is delivered is continually strengthened rather
> > than
> > > what is the case now ..serious weakening...that is the big deal...and
> > what
> > > we need is to continually question our own integrity. How it is
> delivered
> > > is by in large irrelevant because of the many divergent ways of
> learning.
> > > However the original PDC of 72 hr minimum covering every aspect of the
> > > original curriculum must be the minimum expectation beyond the great
> > array
> > > of introduction, lectures, talks, weekends etc etc. Our challenge is to
> > > strengthen the curriculum and ensure all elements are being covered
> > > adequately by qualified practitioners....otherwise we continue to
> weaken
> > > the entire doctrine....then what is the outcome ? we already see this.
> > > ..Steve Hart
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11 June 2013 12:57, Heenan Doherty <heenandoherty@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > G'day,
> > > >
> > > > Well said April and after finally dipping our toe into these waters
> > > though
> > > > our eHD <http://www.heenandoherty.com/eHD> service we are finding
> that
> > > > there are many people and indeed subjects that are dealt with by
> > on-line
> > > > delivery.
> > > >
> > > > As April said, as long as people are transparent about what they are
> > > > delivering and prospective attendees to e-learning know the
> difference
> > > > between e-learning and 'analogue' learning and the limitations to
> both
> > > then
> > > > what's the big deal?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yours & Growing,
> > > >
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> > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:16 AM, A Sampson-Kelly <
> > > > april@permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > There are many people out there wanting to learn about permaculture
> > and
> > > > > they are from an amazing array of learning habits and cultures.
> > > > > As long as the principles and objectives are clear, the methods
> will
> > > > > work for different participants.
> > > > > After teaching online for 20 years I can confidently say Ihave had
> to
> > > > > mop up after a lot of other online teachers to
> > > > > keep the integrity of the service respectful. so even if the
> delivery
> > > > > method is useful for certain participants, the methods of some
> > teachers
> > > > > can be messy.
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > *April S-Kelly*
> > > > >
> > > > > Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla@gmail.com
> > > > > Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526
> > > Australia
> > > > > Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > > > > Google+: April Sampson-Kelly
> > > > > We are a carbon-neutral office. web:
> > > http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > > > > <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > > > > *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > > > > old-fashioned paper.*
> > > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kia ora
> > >
> > > [image: Picture]
> > > *Steve Hart*
> > > Ecology Architect
> > > skype: stevenlawrencehart
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kia ora
> >
> > [image: Picture]
> > *Steve Hart*
> > Ecology Architect
> > skype: stevenlawrencehart
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward list
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> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > Avant Geared http://www.avantgeared.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andrew Millison
> (541) 752-9118
> www.beaverstatepermaculture.com
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>



--
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart




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