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  • From: Douglas Hinds <cedecor@gmx.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] [SANET-MG] yield of conventional vs organic farms
  • Date: Sun, 13 May 2012 10:12:26 -0500


Perhaps I didn't make myself sufficiently clear:

The question of whether organic farming can feed the world or out-produce chemical agriculture is a non-issue because the fundamental question is, what are the national priorities, if feeding people enough high quality food isn't one of them? The resources and technology are there. What's lacking is the recognition that life (and government) is not about competitiveness (to see who can exploit the planet's natural resources and trash the planet's life support systems faster) or markets (to sell people things they don't need, but rather the education and well being of the nations citizens.

Until these truths become self evident and the nation's resources become focused on reaching a consensus and achieving that goal, the profound truths contained in posts made to this list are not going to become reflected in the lives of significant numbers of people anywhere.

This post is not intended to convey a sense of hopelessness but rather, just the opposite. There's a lot that can and should be done to provide impetus for the fundamental changes that must occur in order for the importance of these truths to become meaningful in and applied to the lives of people everywhere.

Hope that helped. Happy Mother's Day.

---------------------------------

On 5/12/2012 6:05 PM, Douglas Hinds wrote:
I am redirecting a message sent to sanet here. Lawrence wanted me to
post to this list and this topic was discussed here also. Then too, the
concepts presented aren't alien to permaculture (which is not a term I
myself have used, although there certainly ARE coincidences with at
least some forms of the permaculture concept). BTW, I began farming
organically in 1968, when organic farming actually meant something more
than the need to pay though the nose for third party certification.
However, I moved to Mexico in 1974 and despite the well publicized
problems existing here (but not nearly as much as most of you probably
think), I'm glad I did. (For a lot of reasons that can be discussed
later - maybe).

On 5/12/2012 at 8:16 AM, Edna Weigel wrote:

I've enjoyed this discussion, especially as related to obesity
prevention. ... Any comments?
Edna
Yes Edna, I'll comment - although frankly, I'm no sure how much good it
will do, because my frame of reference -the perceptions and measurements
that guide my life- is probably much different than yours (generic,
plural second person you). In other words, In the same way that
saneters -people who care more about food (and how it is grown)- are
different from people who don't think much about that, my experiences
and the conclusions those experiences generated are unlikely to be held
by anyone else here. In a real sense, I don't live in the same world as
the rest of you. (And this will become evident as the discussion develops).

> One thought I'd like to see explored in greater detail is the concept
of nutrient density. Seems like I've read (probably on SANET) that the
concentration on yield has led to varieties that are higher in
carbohydrates at the expense of other nutrients. The large scale US
distribution system encourages production of vegetables that produce
high yields and ship well. In the supermarket, flavor isn't a criteria
because the customer has no way to pre-taste what they are about to buy
and most customers have no idea that better tasting fruits and
vegetables can be btained anywhere so they depend on soft drinks and
manufactured foods for their taste treats. In contrast, a farmers
market vendor won't have many return customers if what he/she sells has
no flavor but the one at the next table has delicious, tasty food (it
also helps that some vendors give out preparation advice to those who
have no idea how to prepare fresh, unfamiliar foods). I tend to think
flavor correlates to nutrient content--it certainly correlates to the
quantity of vegetables I consume relative to grains. And, of course,
higher carb content of ordinary vegetables and grains seems
made-to-order to increase obesity.

Yes, flavor certainly correlates to nutrient density and it may be
worthwhile to identify the reasons why. However, in order to do so,
we'll have start from the beginning, and that means asking: What is
Food? To start with, food keeps us alive. It is also what made us
grow, after being born. Where does it come from? It comes from other
living organisms. And it embodies a given set of environmental
conditions that after being consumed, help create the conditions that
produce an identifiable internal environment, within us too.

The first phrase of the last sentence is where conventional ag
production systems fail and also, explains why they fail: Because they
don't taking onto account the indisputable fact that agriculture (plant
growth and food production) is a activity that depends on naturally
occurring biological processes involving a large number of beneficial
and sometimes (when the environmental conditions are wrong), not so
beneficial organisms. The importance of soil organisms means nothing to
the manufacturers of chemical inputs and the poor souls that depend on
them (and will never liberate themselves from them) in order to farm.

There too, we can all agree. Where we are not likely to agree so much
however, is in relation to the importance and significance of the
internal environment food creates after eating it. Remember, all of our
tissues and most of our metabolic processes are derived from food (along
with air and water), and most of what all of you eat, is NOT FOOD to
me. How so? I discovered a long time ago that when a given food
substance (or it's source) was created for one purpose but used for a
completely different one (that is, eaten), a conflict occurs on every
level (that is, boith metabolic and moral).

The reason I am saying this is, I feel OBLIGATED to share something that
works (and has worked since 1966) perfectly well for me, because people
actually die as a result of ignoring this principle.

So what do I eat, then? My diet is derived principally from the fruit
of whole (not grafted) trees, along with the botanical fruit of less
developed organisms (i.e. tomatoes, melons, peppers etc), All raw.
Since 1966.

I suppose that may seem like radical behavior for most of you, and may
have a limited relevance to the subject of this thread, but the point
is, organic has a long way to go before it reflects the biological
reality of human needs, the role of agriculture in society and the role
of human beings on this planet. A whole new paradigm and set of
measurements (along with a totally new economic system) is going to have
to be developed in order to account for all this and correct itself. (In
that respect, I've been taking a look at the work of the Odum brothers
and more recent, related work for that purpose).

I'm 69, have a four month old daughter and another on the way, so I
thought I'd better come out with it already.

Lastly, some unenlightened sanet moderator capriciously put me on
moderation some time back, so any interest generated by this post should
probably be routed via private mail or another mailing list, because my
posts are not going to become visible for an unreasonably long time,
thanks to those insulting shenanigans.

Douglas


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  • Re: [permaculture] [SANET-MG] yield of conventional vs organic farms, Douglas Hinds, 05/13/2012

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