Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

permaculture - Re: [permaculture] the limits of the conversation

permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: permaculture

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj@bellsouth.net>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] the limits of the conversation
  • Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:13:06 -0400

On 9/23/2010 9:58 AM, Scott Pittman wrote:
This comment by Paul Wheaton leaves me totally flabbergasted; the only thing
that I can assume is that his pc
certificate was issued by someone who shouldn't be teaching permaculture.

Did you check this out before making this accusation?

How is it that you reserve the right to determine what to leave in or out of
the design system called permaculture.
Can you leave out the 0 in the numeric system we use in our entire math and
still call it math? I assume that you
could but what you would be left with wouldn't be math recognized by anyone
but yourself.

This is a major concern of mine: that people use the word permaculture
without giving any thought that it may well
have been conceived and developed by people as a whole system of design.

I think that part of my problem on this list is that I have assumed that we
are all on the same page as far as our
understanding of permaculture is concerned and that is not true at all. Many
on this list think pc is a technique to
grow food or build houses and have no idea that there is a whole underpinning
of ecological science, design process
and ethical rules that underlie all of the techniques.

I am sure we are all on the same page as far as maintaining the standards of
permaculture is concerned.
Many of us are as determined to do that as you are if not more so. That is exactly what I thought I was doing all along with this list by starting it and helping to keep it alive.

If this makes you uncomfortable then use another term to describe what you
do, the term permaculture has been
understood and practiced for over 30 years and has been reserved for use by
graduates of the certification course
described by Bill Mollison and laid out in his book "Permaculture A Designer's
Manual" and his teaching. I am
surprised that anyone would take it upon themselves to come up with another
definition unless it was to get a free
ride on someone else's work; which to me is unethical.

My understanding of permaculture is one hundred percent consistent with what
Mollison has written about and taught.
As for the ethics part I am sure he and I would be in total agreement about
that as a vital component of permaculture.
As for discussion of ethics and morality in this list, it may be done so within reason and in moderation. It will not be allowed to dominate this list, which is exactly what certain others, some of whom you supported, were trying to do
while using such discussion to push their personal agendas and businesses, thus degrading the forum. This happened four times before and this fifth stink will be the last.

Why is it so hard to conceive of the public's common understanding of ethics and morality? Most were raised according to those principles. Why do certain proselytizers, using the permaculture movement to forward their personal goals, have to continually tell folks that they do not know how to treat their fellow man fairly and that they, the official custodians of such knowledge, the source from which all good things flow, need them to participate in their social reengineering program to learn from them exclusively what ethics is all about with the added twist, how it is integrated into the practice of permaculture, for a fee of course? Fortunately few who make their livelihood teaching permaculture do this.

If the rules of this list are to deny discussion of what I consider the most
important piece of permaculture then I
suggest we call it something besides permaculture. I would still be very
interested in the conversation but wouldn't

You and the others have made a mountain out of a molehill with continuous reinforcing feedback loops. I was trying to reduce offtopic posts so that users who are here to learn how to build permaculture systems on their property could do so easily. That's the goal of this list. That ethics are part of permaculture is assumed, an unwritten understanding.
The primary goal of this forum is to help people learn how to integrate permaculture into their lives and construct all necessary systems where they live, on their property, in their neighborhoods and communities needed to enable them to live healthy, productive, satisfying lives. They will have the ability to do this efficiently in this forum.

Read what I said above about the rules of this list and this:

Keywords: ETHICS in PC = OK in this list ****WITHIN REASON****

More keywords: ****WITHIN REASON**** No more discussion about whether it's OK to teach the military PC or not, politics, religion, ethics and morality per se, the military in general except for humanitarian aid and bringing PC to people.

This info will not be posted on the list's homepage. I will repost it as a
message to the list on an as needed basis only.

continue to have a conversation under the misapprehension that I am talking
about permaculture when I am really in a
conversation about farming and village technology.

That is what is most important to most subscribers and is the primary mission
of this forum: as you say,
farming and village technology. People who don't have much to eat because
they do not know how to produce it are less
likely to be particularly interested in how ethics relate to permaculture,
when they already lead ethical lives.




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page