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  • From: Graham <grahamburnett@blueyonder.co.uk>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 45, Issue 42
  • Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:38:46 +0100

Um, ever heard of the 'delete' button??

;)

On Tue, 2006-10-24 at 21:34 +1000, Ken Beer wrote:
> Dear Sir,
> I am trying to read up on permaculture, and come across a political debate,
> that has nothing to do with our hobby or work.
> I think you are rude and cheeky to take hold of this website and voice your
> particular spleen on people across the world.
> Don't you have a correct forum for that in the great USof A because I
> thought you have freedom of choice in elections; maybe a lot of your
> friends
> don't vote. In my country we all do, so we know who the majority is & have
> to cop it sweet, if it runs counter to our personal conviction.
> I hope you will spend more time looking out how to save your own little
> parcel of land, & maybe share concerns about it.
> I think now I've had my say, I'd better study permaculture "down under"!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
> To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:00 AM
> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 45, Issue 42
>
>
> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > permaculture-owner@lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: [Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Pollinators crash] (jedd)
> > 2. Re: Keith Oberman- Politics-please delete if you want only
> > permaculture info (Keith Johnson)
> > 3. keith oberman (Steve Hoog)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:33:36 +1000
> > From: jedd <jedd@progsoc.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] [Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Pollinators crash]
> > To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Message-ID: <200610221733.36844.jedd@progsoc.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > On Sunday 22 October 2006 12:18 am, Margaret & Steven Eisenhauer wrote:
> > ] In the early evening we
> > ] regularly see bats running the skies. We need to get moving a set up
> > bat
> > ] houses; we want them to eat all the mosquitoes!
> >
> > There's not a lot of evidence to support the belief that
> > bats keep mosquito numbers down, btw.
> >
> > Jedd.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:29:46 -0400
> > From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keith Oberman- Politics-please delete if
> > you want only permaculture info
> > To: Permaculture ibiblio <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,
> > openpermaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>, BPG
> > <bloomingtonpermacultureguild@lists.riseup.net>
> > Message-ID: <453B8E6A.9060804@mindspring.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > I don't watch television, so I only recently heard about this guy, and
> > it may be old news to you already, but if this kind of statement is
> > being made on national TV, then it suggests the possibility that the
> > media may be awakening from its stupor and finding its mission to be a
> > voice of the people again. I heard Amy Goodman at Bioneers yesterday and
> > it had me and most of the audience weeping and simultaneously shouting
> > for joy to be hearing variants on the below. If you can get yourself to
> > any part of a Bioneers event or buy CD's or DVD's of this or previous
> > events, you will reward yourself enormously.
> >
> > To echo Amy, "We will not be silenced."
> > Keith
> >
> >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:32 PM
> >>
> >> *Subject:* Kieth Oberman
> >>
> >> Olbermann Addresses the Military Commissions Act in a Special Comment By
> >> Keith Olbermann MSNBC Countdown
> >>
> >> Wednesday 18 October 2006
> >>
> >> We have lived as if in a trance.
> >>
> >> We have lived as people in fear.
> >>
> >> And now - our rights and our freedoms in peril - we slowly awake to learn
> >> that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.
> >>
> >> Therefore, tonight have we truly become the inheritors of our American
> >> legacy.
> >>
> >> For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in
> >> force,
> >> we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated
> >> crisis
> >> and melodramatic fear-mongering:
> >>
> >> A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it
> >> claims to
> >> protect us from.
> >>
> >> We have been here before - and we have been here before led here - by men
> >> better and wiser and nobler than George W. Bush.
> >>
> >> We have been here when President John Adams insisted that the Alien and
> >> Sedition Acts were necessary to save American lives, only to watch him
> >> use
> >> those acts to jail newspaper editors.
> >>
> >> American newspaper editors, in American jails, for things they wrote
> >> about
> >> America.
> >>
> >> We have been here when President Woodrow Wilson insisted that the
> >> Espionage
> >> Act was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that
> >> Act to
> >> prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he disparaged as "Hyphenated
> >> Americans," most of whom were guilty only of advocating peace in a
> >> time of
> >> war.
> >>
> >> American public speakers, in American jails, for things they said about
> >> America.
> >>
> >> And we have been here when President Franklin D. Roosevelt insisted that
> >> Executive Order 9066 was necessary to save American lives, only to
> >> watch him
> >> use that order to imprison and pauperize 110,000 Americans while his
> >> man in
> >> charge, General DeWitt, told Congress: "It makes no difference whether
> >> he is
> >> an American citizen - he is still a Japanese."
> >>
> >> American citizens, in American camps, for something they neither wrote
> >> nor
> >> said nor did, but for the choices they or their ancestors had made about
> >> coming to America.
> >>
> >> Each of these actions was undertaken for the most vital, the most urgent,
> >> the most inescapable of reasons.
> >>
> >> And each was a betrayal of that for which the president who advocated
> >> them
> >> claimed to be fighting.
> >>
> >> Adams and his party were swept from office, and the Alien and Sedition
> >> Acts
> >> erased.
> >>
> >> Many of the very people Wilson silenced survived him, and one of them
> >> even
> >> ran to succeed him, and got 900,000 votes, though his presidential
> >> campaign
> >> was conducted entirely from his jail cell.
> >>
> >> And Roosevelt's internment of the Japanese was not merely the worst
> >> blight
> >> on his record, but it would necessitate a formal apology from the
> >> government
> >> of the United States to the citizens of the United States whose lives it
> >> ruined.
> >>
> >> The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.
> >>
> >> In times of fright, we have been only human.
> >>
> >> We have let Roosevelt's "fear of fear itself" overtake us.
> >>
> >> We have listened to the little voice inside that has said, "the wolf
> >> is at
> >> the door; this will be temporary; this will be precise; this too shall
> >> pass."
> >>
> >> We have accepted that the only way to stop the terrorists is to let the
> >> government become just a little bit like the terrorists.
> >>
> >> Just the way we once accepted that the only way to stop the Soviets
> >> was to
> >> let the government become just a little bit like the Soviets.
> >>
> >> Or substitute the Japanese.
> >>
> >> Or the Germans.
> >>
> >> Or the Socialists.
> >>
> >> Or the Anarchists.
> >>
> >> Or the Immigrants.
> >>
> >> Or the British.
> >>
> >> Or the Aliens.
> >>
> >> The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.
> >>
> >> And, always, always wrong.
> >>
> >> "With the distance of history, the questions will be narrowed and few:
> >> Did
> >> this generation of Americans take the threat seriously, and did we do
> >> what
> >> it takes to defeat that threat?"
> >>
> >> Wise words.
> >>
> >> And ironic ones, Mr. Bush.
> >>
> >> Your own, of course, yesterday, in signing the Military Commissions Act.
> >>
> >> You spoke so much more than you know, Sir.
> >>
> >> Sadly - of course - the distance of history will recognize that the
> >> threat
> >> this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you.
> >>
> >> We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to
> >> Benjamin Franklin that "those who would give up essential liberty to
> >> purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> >>
> >> But even within this history we have not before codified the poisoning of
> >> habeas corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential
> >> liberties flow.
> >>
> >> You, sir, have now befouled that spring.
> >>
> >> You, sir, have now given us chaos and called it order.
> >>
> >> You, sir, have now imposed subjugation and called it freedom.
> >>
> >> For the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.
> >>
> >> And - again, Mr. Bush - all of them, wrong.
> >>
> >> We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who
> >> has said
> >> it is unacceptable to compare anything this country has ever done to
> >> anything the terrorists have ever done.
> >>
> >> We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has
> >> insisted again that "the United States does not torture. It's against our
> >> laws and it's against our values" and who has said it with a straight
> >> face
> >> while the pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison and the stories of
> >> Waterboarding
> >> figuratively fade in and out, around him.
> >>
> >> We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who
> >> may now,
> >> if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens "unlawful
> >> enemy combatants" and ship them somewhere - anywhere - but may now, if
> >> he so
> >> decides, declare you an "unlawful enemy combatant" and ship you
> >> somewhere -
> >> anywhere.
> >>
> >> And if you think this hyperbole or hysteria, ask the newspaper editors
> >> when
> >> John Adams was president or the pacifists when Woodrow Wilson was
> >> president
> >> or the Japanese at Manzanar when Franklin Roosevelt was president.
> >>
> >> And if you somehow think habeas corpus has not been suspended for
> >> American
> >> citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are
> >> pulled
> >> off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented
> >> immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how are you going to
> >> convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you
> >> think
> >> this attorney general is going to help you?
> >>
> >> This President now has his blank check.
> >>
> >> He lied to get it.
> >>
> >> He lied as he received it.
> >>
> >> Is there any reason to even hope he has not lied about how he intends
> >> to use
> >> it nor who he intends to use it against?
> >>
> >> "These military commissions will provide a fair trial," you told us
> >> yesterday, Mr. Bush, "in which the accused are presumed innocent, have
> >> access to an attorney and can hear all the evidence against them."
> >>
> >> "Presumed innocent," Mr. Bush?
> >>
> >> The very piece of paper you signed as you said that, allows for the
> >> detainees to be abused up to the point just before they sustain "serious
> >> mental and physical trauma" in the hope of getting them to incriminate
> >> themselves, and may no longer even invoke The Geneva Conventions in their
> >> own defense.
> >>
> >> "Access to an attorney," Mr. Bush?
> >>
> >> Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift said on this program, Sir, and to the
> >> Supreme Court, that he was only granted access to his detainee
> >> defendant on
> >> the promise that the detainee would plead guilty.
> >>
> >> "Hearing all the evidence," Mr. Bush?
> >>
> >> The Military Commissions Act specifically permits the introduction of
> >> classified evidence not made available to the defense.
> >>
> >> Your words are lies, Sir.
> >>
> >> They are lies that imperil us all.
> >>
> >> "One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks," you
> >> told
> >> us yesterday, "said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of the
> >> end
> >> of America."
> >>
> >> That terrorist, sir, could only hope.
> >>
> >> Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists
> >> (real or
> >> imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought.
> >>
> >> Habeas corpus? Gone.
> >>
> >> The Geneva Conventions? Optional.
> >>
> >> The moral force we shined outwards to the world as an eternal beacon, and
> >> inwards at ourselves as an eternal protection? Snuffed out.
> >>
> >> These things you have done, Mr. Bush, they would be "the beginning of the
> >> end of America."
> >>
> >> And did it even occur to you once, sir - somewhere in amidst those eight
> >> separate, gruesome, intentional, terroristic invocations of the
> >> horrors of
> >> 9/11 - that with only a little further shift in this world we now know -
> >> just a touch more repudiation of all of that for which our patriots
> >> died --
> >> did it ever occur to you once that in just 27 months and two days from
> >> now
> >> when you leave office, some irresponsible future president and a
> >> "competent
> >> tribunal" of lackeys would be entitled, by the actions of your own
> >> hand, to
> >> declare the status of "unlawful enemy combatant" for - and convene a
> >> Military
> >> Commission to try - not John Walker Lindh, but George Walker Bush?
> >>
> >> For the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of
> >> reasons.
> >>
> >> And doubtless, Sir, all of them - as always - wrong.
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Keith Johnson
> > Permaculture Activist Magazine
> > PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47408
> > (812) 335-0383
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net
> > also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> > also Association for Regenerative Culture
> > also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's
> > a small world after oil.
> > http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
> > also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.9/490 - Release Date: 10/20/2006
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Steve Hoog <livingpotentials@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: [permaculture] keith oberman
> > To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > Message-ID: <20061022155551.79489.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > if you google keith oberman you will find a number of videos of previous
> > shows that have been hard hitting like that one--steve h
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
> > countries) for 2?/min or less.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> >
> > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 45, Issue 42
> > ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
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