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  • From: "Ken Beer" <nkbeer@bigpond.net.au>
  • To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 45, Issue 42
  • Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:34:06 +1000

Dear Sir,
I am trying to read up on permaculture, and come across a political debate, that has nothing to do with our hobby or work.
I think you are rude and cheeky to take hold of this website and voice your particular spleen on people across the world.
Don't you have a correct forum for that in the great USof A because I thought you have freedom of choice in elections; maybe a lot of your friends don't vote. In my country we all do, so we know who the majority is & have to cop it sweet, if it runs counter to our personal conviction.
I hope you will spend more time looking out how to save your own little parcel of land, & maybe share concerns about it.
I think now I've had my say, I'd better study permaculture "down under"!
----- Original Message ----- From: <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:00 AM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 45, Issue 42


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: [Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Pollinators crash] (jedd)
2. Re: Keith Oberman- Politics-please delete if you want only
permaculture info (Keith Johnson)
3. keith oberman (Steve Hoog)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:33:36 +1000
From: jedd <jedd@progsoc.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] [Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] Pollinators crash]
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <200610221733.36844.jedd@progsoc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On Sunday 22 October 2006 12:18 am, Margaret & Steven Eisenhauer wrote:
] In the early evening we
] regularly see bats running the skies. We need to get moving a set up bat
] houses; we want them to eat all the mosquitoes!

There's not a lot of evidence to support the belief that
bats keep mosquito numbers down, btw.

Jedd.



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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:29:46 -0400
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Keith Oberman- Politics-please delete if
you want only permaculture info
To: Permaculture ibiblio <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>,
openpermaculture <permaculture@openpermaculture.org>, BPG
<bloomingtonpermacultureguild@lists.riseup.net>
Message-ID: <453B8E6A.9060804@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I don't watch television, so I only recently heard about this guy, and
it may be old news to you already, but if this kind of statement is
being made on national TV, then it suggests the possibility that the
media may be awakening from its stupor and finding its mission to be a
voice of the people again. I heard Amy Goodman at Bioneers yesterday and
it had me and most of the audience weeping and simultaneously shouting
for joy to be hearing variants on the below. If you can get yourself to
any part of a Bioneers event or buy CD's or DVD's of this or previous
events, you will reward yourself enormously.

To echo Amy, "We will not be silenced."
Keith

*Sent:* Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:32 PM

*Subject:* Kieth Oberman

Olbermann Addresses the Military Commissions Act in a Special Comment By
Keith Olbermann MSNBC Countdown

Wednesday 18 October 2006

We have lived as if in a trance.

We have lived as people in fear.

And now - our rights and our freedoms in peril - we slowly awake to learn
that we have been afraid of the wrong thing.

Therefore, tonight have we truly become the inheritors of our American
legacy.

For, on this first full day that the Military Commissions Act is in
force,
we now face what our ancestors faced, at other times of exaggerated
crisis
and melodramatic fear-mongering:

A government more dangerous to our liberty, than is the enemy it
claims to
protect us from.

We have been here before - and we have been here before led here - by men
better and wiser and nobler than George W. Bush.

We have been here when President John Adams insisted that the Alien and
Sedition Acts were necessary to save American lives, only to watch him
use
those acts to jail newspaper editors.

American newspaper editors, in American jails, for things they wrote
about
America.

We have been here when President Woodrow Wilson insisted that the
Espionage
Act was necessary to save American lives, only to watch him use that
Act to
prosecute 2,000 Americans, especially those he disparaged as "Hyphenated
Americans," most of whom were guilty only of advocating peace in a
time of
war.

American public speakers, in American jails, for things they said about
America.

And we have been here when President Franklin D. Roosevelt insisted that
Executive Order 9066 was necessary to save American lives, only to
watch him
use that order to imprison and pauperize 110,000 Americans while his
man in
charge, General DeWitt, told Congress: "It makes no difference whether
he is
an American citizen - he is still a Japanese."

American citizens, in American camps, for something they neither wrote
nor
said nor did, but for the choices they or their ancestors had made about
coming to America.

Each of these actions was undertaken for the most vital, the most urgent,
the most inescapable of reasons.

And each was a betrayal of that for which the president who advocated
them
claimed to be fighting.

Adams and his party were swept from office, and the Alien and Sedition
Acts
erased.

Many of the very people Wilson silenced survived him, and one of them
even
ran to succeed him, and got 900,000 votes, though his presidential
campaign
was conducted entirely from his jail cell.

And Roosevelt's internment of the Japanese was not merely the worst
blight
on his record, but it would necessitate a formal apology from the
government
of the United States to the citizens of the United States whose lives it
ruined.

The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

In times of fright, we have been only human.

We have let Roosevelt's "fear of fear itself" overtake us.

We have listened to the little voice inside that has said, "the wolf
is at
the door; this will be temporary; this will be precise; this too shall
pass."

We have accepted that the only way to stop the terrorists is to let the
government become just a little bit like the terrorists.

Just the way we once accepted that the only way to stop the Soviets
was to
let the government become just a little bit like the Soviets.

Or substitute the Japanese.

Or the Germans.

Or the Socialists.

Or the Anarchists.

Or the Immigrants.

Or the British.

Or the Aliens.

The most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And, always, always wrong.

"With the distance of history, the questions will be narrowed and few:
Did
this generation of Americans take the threat seriously, and did we do
what
it takes to defeat that threat?"

Wise words.

And ironic ones, Mr. Bush.

Your own, of course, yesterday, in signing the Military Commissions Act.

You spoke so much more than you know, Sir.

Sadly - of course - the distance of history will recognize that the
threat
this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you.

We have a long and painful history of ignoring the prophecy attributed to
Benjamin Franklin that "those who would give up essential liberty to
purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

But even within this history we have not before codified the poisoning of
habeas corpus, that wellspring of protection from which all essential
liberties flow.

You, sir, have now befouled that spring.

You, sir, have now given us chaos and called it order.

You, sir, have now imposed subjugation and called it freedom.

For the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And - again, Mr. Bush - all of them, wrong.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who
has said
it is unacceptable to compare anything this country has ever done to
anything the terrorists have ever done.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who has
insisted again that "the United States does not torture. It's against our
laws and it's against our values" and who has said it with a straight
face
while the pictures from Abu Ghraib Prison and the stories of
Waterboarding
figuratively fade in and out, around him.

We have handed a blank check drawn against our freedom to a man who
may now,
if he so decides, declare not merely any non-American citizens "unlawful
enemy combatants" and ship them somewhere - anywhere - but may now, if
he so
decides, declare you an "unlawful enemy combatant" and ship you
somewhere -
anywhere.

And if you think this hyperbole or hysteria, ask the newspaper editors
when
John Adams was president or the pacifists when Woodrow Wilson was
president
or the Japanese at Manzanar when Franklin Roosevelt was president.

And if you somehow think habeas corpus has not been suspended for
American
citizens but only for everybody else, ask yourself this: If you are
pulled
off the street tomorrow, and they call you an alien or an undocumented
immigrant or an "unlawful enemy combatant" - exactly how are you going to
convince them to give you a court hearing to prove you are not? Do you
think
this attorney general is going to help you?

This President now has his blank check.

He lied to get it.

He lied as he received it.

Is there any reason to even hope he has not lied about how he intends
to use
it nor who he intends to use it against?

"These military commissions will provide a fair trial," you told us
yesterday, Mr. Bush, "in which the accused are presumed innocent, have
access to an attorney and can hear all the evidence against them."

"Presumed innocent," Mr. Bush?

The very piece of paper you signed as you said that, allows for the
detainees to be abused up to the point just before they sustain "serious
mental and physical trauma" in the hope of getting them to incriminate
themselves, and may no longer even invoke The Geneva Conventions in their
own defense.

"Access to an attorney," Mr. Bush?

Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift said on this program, Sir, and to the
Supreme Court, that he was only granted access to his detainee
defendant on
the promise that the detainee would plead guilty.

"Hearing all the evidence," Mr. Bush?

The Military Commissions Act specifically permits the introduction of
classified evidence not made available to the defense.

Your words are lies, Sir.

They are lies that imperil us all.

"One of the terrorists believed to have planned the 9/11 attacks," you
told
us yesterday, "said he hoped the attacks would be the beginning of the
end
of America."

That terrorist, sir, could only hope.

Not his actions, nor the actions of a ceaseless line of terrorists
(real or
imagined), could measure up to what you have wrought.

Habeas corpus? Gone.

The Geneva Conventions? Optional.

The moral force we shined outwards to the world as an eternal beacon, and
inwards at ourselves as an eternal protection? Snuffed out.

These things you have done, Mr. Bush, they would be "the beginning of the
end of America."

And did it even occur to you once, sir - somewhere in amidst those eight
separate, gruesome, intentional, terroristic invocations of the
horrors of
9/11 - that with only a little further shift in this world we now know -
just a touch more repudiation of all of that for which our patriots
died --
did it ever occur to you once that in just 27 months and two days from
now
when you leave office, some irresponsible future president and a
"competent
tribunal" of lackeys would be entitled, by the actions of your own
hand, to
declare the status of "unlawful enemy combatant" for - and convene a
Military
Commission to try - not John Walker Lindh, but George Walker Bush?

For the most vital, the most urgent, the most inescapable of reasons.

And doubtless, Sir, all of them - as always - wrong.


--
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47408
(812) 335-0383
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
also Association for Regenerative Culture
also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's a small world after oil.
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
also Bloomington Permaculture Guild



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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Hoog <livingpotentials@yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] keith oberman
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20061022155551.79489.qmail@web52607.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

if you google keith oberman you will find a number of videos of previous shows that have been hard hitting like that one--steve h

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End of permaculture Digest, Vol 45, Issue 42
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