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  • From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net>
  • To: "permaculture" <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] entropy and PC yields
  • Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:06:43 -0800 (PST)

Aloha,

Entropy is nothing more than a description of behavior observed in some
system(s). So the term is only meaningful when considered in a particular
context.
What are the boundaries of the system being observed? That is a key question.

In any reasonably healthy biological system on planet earth, if you limit your
system boundaries to within earth's biosphere, you will not observe entropy.
You will instead observe negentropy - an overall increase in available energy
over time.

This observation can be true for that system because the solar energy coming
into the system is not part of the equation.

If you redraw your (always arbitrary) system boundaries to include the sun,
then you may observe entropy in that larger system, as the sun burns itself up
(loses energy) and in so doing provides the inputs for the increase of energy
on system earth.

Of course the sun is losing energy in all directions, far far more than comes
to the earth alone, so it is not quite that simple.
The important point is paying attention to defining what the system under
consideration is.

It is also important to avoid applying physics concepts such as entropy to
living systems. The application of Newtonian physics, Cartesian concepts,
etc. to explain "life, the universe and everything" is part of the mistake
we've been living. Thinking about living systems in terms of physics concepts
such as entropy is a piece of that same mistake. Physics is very little (if
any) use in accurately describing behaviors of living systems.

When I kick a (relatively small) rock, physics can quite accurately describe
what the rock does.

When I kick a (live) dog, physics is pretty much useless for describing what
the dog does.

> ...Still at each energy transaction, the law of entropy states that part of
> the
> initial available energy goes lost forever. So even if we cycle and cycle
> the
> same resource at each time part of its inherent energy must have gone lost.
> So
> if you have 10 calories to start with, on the second cycle you may have 9.5
> if
> you are very efficient, and next one perhaps 8.9 and so on. But the overall
> available energy is diminishing at all times. Does PC "infringe" the law of
> entropy? In which respect it is possible to produce more energy than the one
> received in input?



John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design
------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Design & Technology Services
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john@eco-living.net
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