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  • From: Harold Waldock <haroldw@alternatives.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: RE: [permaculture] energy futures
  • Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:15:13 -0700

It is cheap and efficient to put a hot water to air "radiator" into a
standard gas furnace less than $1000 and you can keep the gas burning
component for back up or peaking.

A local company http://www.taylormunro.com/index.html is designing a system
that has solar hotwater panels, hotwater tank and then it preheats your
hotwater with a tankless heater and has a line out to the forced air system
so it will heat your house. Thus you get more value for the captured solar
energy. At night or cloudy winter days the tankless heater looks after both
the hotwater needs and the heating needs. And you can keep the old gas
space heating system in place.

It is rediculous to say that buying hotwater from a hot water district is
more socialist than buying btu's from oil or gas suppliers. What would be
socialist is to continue to pay oil and gas suppliers high prices when it is
cheaper (usually much cheaper) to get hot water from a hot water district.

Hot water districts work in suprisingly large districts so long as the
density of use is high. There are 100's of heating districts in NA in most
downtown districts and universities - often old steam systems. Now it is
much more economic to have 4 pipe systems cold and hot with returns.

Here in BC, there is a crazy case where a gas fired power company is to
locate with in feet of the Canadian border, use Canadian gas, pollute
Canadian Air, use Canadian powerlines and sell the power to the US. They
did not offer hotwater to the exsting ones that are now struggling to heat
themselves or allow for acres of greenhouses which could have been built.

Every power plant, and industrial facility could heat the whole
neigbourhood. It creates goodwill, clean air and is a good use of
resources.


Harold Waldock

> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:permaculture-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Kelly
> Finigan
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 12:13 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] energy futures
>
>
> Hi:
>
> "3) Biomass Combined Heat and Power"
>
> "CHP" otherwise known as "cogeneration"...been widely used in Europe, now
> catching on in North America at industrial sites. It is the
> "co"-generating
> of two products at once - electricity and useful heat. In "ordinary"
> electricity generation, e.g. coal combustion, the result is usually about
> 30% electricity and 70% "waste" in the form of heat.
> Co-generation takes the
> heat (through a series of heat exchangers) and puts it to use.
> Industrially,
> it is used to heat up water for steam or to make a chemical
> reaction occur.
> In Denmark, the heat (steam or hot water) is put into pipes and made
> available to the buildings in a certain area ("District Heating"). Inside
> the buildings are radiator systems to distribute the heat. Overall system
> efficiencies (usefulness of the energy in the original "fuel")
> approach 80%
> to 90% (for newer electricity plants).
>
> I think this is a great idea where you can do it...extends the work from
> your fuel (fossil, biomass, solar etc) from about 30% to almost triple!
>
> However: you need a USEFUL way to use the heat and a way to get it
> there..this can present challenges. First, almost everybody has
> to do it for
> the economics to make sense - you can't just install a system to
> heat three
> houses over here, two more four miles away and the odd guy out in
> the woods -
> you need a majority to "buy in" and to be relatively close together.
> Second, where I live, everybody has an independent forced air
> heating system
> (no pipes between buildings, no radiator systems)...my gut feel (maybe
> someone could challenge/confirm this with facts / figures in the
> future???)
> is it would be better to keep the existing infrastructure and upgrade our
> buildings rather than put in new infrastructure...I suspect
> weatherstripping, insulating and adding a "solar engine" would be energy-
> wise and economically cheaper than bringing NEW pipelines down
> the street,
> installing NEW heat circulation systems (e.g. radiators),
> throwing away the
> old infrastructure and then having the privilege of paying the utility
> company to send you hot water/steam across town. Third, I think
> there may be
> some social resistance in some places - around this ultra-conservative
> territory, where everybody is "independent" and proud of it - hooking
> everyone up to the system might even be perceived as "socialist"...
>
> Beyond these challenges though, I think that CHP is great and would
> recommend it especially if: there is an electricity plant IN your
> town and
> a "matching" heat requirement nearby (you might aproach the utility and
> convince them that by upping the "system" performance, they benefit
> by "offsetting" their greenhouse gas obligations), you are making a new
> suburb / ecovillage and wish to produce electricity, or are planning a
> combined thermal electricity (preferably biogas,wood or
> geothermal) plant /
> pig barn / aquaculture / greenhouse / mushroom operation.
>
> ciao,
> Kelly
>
>
> : very heavily used in Denmark. Up to
> > 90%
> > > > efficiency.
> > >
> > > And what's the mechanics of these, too (regardless of fuel source)?
> >
> > hi:
> >
> > we (writing from austria) call them Blockheizkraftwerk (BHKW) -
> > http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/ translates this as: communal
> > heating/power station; thermal power station - some explanations
> > with some nice diagrams can be found at http://www.htl-
> > steyr.ac.at/htlde/ak/3proje/peak/peak2.htm - in german, but
> > diagramms are pretty universal, i would reckon.
> >
> > keep diggin,
> > georg
> >
> > * * *
> > Georg Parlow
> > g.parlow@zartbesaitet.net
> > http://zartbesaitet.net/gp
> > A-1230 Wien, R.Zellergasse 70/4/1
> >
> > http://zartbesaitet.net
> > die Webseite für hochempfindliche Menschen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>
> --
> Kelly Finigan, M.Sc. P.Eng. Permaculture Designer
> ~ Sustainability consultant & ecological designer ~
>
> 744 - 4 Street NW
> Calgary, Alberta T2N 1P2
> phone 1-403-283-7270
> _______________________________________________
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>






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