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  • From: Stephanie Gerson <sgerson@stanfordalumni.org>
  • To: <john@eco-living.net>, <pcplantdb@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Cc:
  • Subject: [pcplantdb] wowww
  • Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:44:27 -0700

what a discussion!

John, your wish of reviving the db discussion was definitely granted :)

I definitely agree with everything that has been said, and OF COURSE I
would Love to collaborate with what already exists. Definitely not
looking to re-invent the wheel, especially when Rich and PFAF have
already designed such a fine one.

Just had an idea, didn't know what was out there, so decided to present
it...and the conversation it (re)stimulated is such a wonderful surprise!
And I feel genuinely lucky to be discussing this idea with such dedicated
permies.

To let you all know, I am not set on anything- not even Thinkmap. I was
just pretty amazed at its visual interface, and ability to represent
information in a web-like format. Like I said before, this project is
only worth as much as its support from the Permaculture community--
accordingly, the most solid project will be the one that the majority of
us can unite on! This project everyONE's, so let's collaborate. Instead
of going in different directions, let's discuss what our goals are, and
then choose the appropriate technology which can fullfill it.

Can I make a suggestion (and give us a bit of homework)? Can we all
answer these 4 questions:

1. What would be want the ultimate plant/guild database to be able to
acheive? brainstorm *goals*, forget tech format for now. get specific
(i.e. I want to be able to insert x,y,z criteria and design a medicinal
guild for my local region...) Also specify fee (free or paid), format
(web or cd rom)-- how this tool is accessed.

2. What characteristics of current plant/guild databases can serve as a
model- features we admire, and would we want to include in a 'next level'
project?

3. What are current plant/guild databases lacking, that we would aspire
to include in a 'next level' project?

4. only AFTER answering the first 3, brainstorm tech formats/platforms
that could acheive this end and how.

I think if we are all truly interested in developing this, it would be
fruitful to answer these questions. We might make unintended
discoveries. I know for myself, this week is super busy, but I will try
to tackle them over the weekend. I just feel like instead of criticizing
Thinkmap or PFAF or anything else for not being able to do this or that,
we must remind ourselves of what our OVERALL INTENTIONS are, and only
then we can judge the different formats appropriately, ne c'est pas?

And I have a few specific responses to comments that you made-
specifically Rich, Chad, and John. I'LL RESPOND IN CAPS, NOT YELLING
JUST WANT TO DISTINGUISH MY WRITING:

If I understand your project, you will be raising funds to pay a
commercial development company to develop a product based on their own
proprietary platform. If you will actually own all of the end product of
that development, you could indeed make it freely available to those with
adequate techological means, assuming you have legal rights to distribute
their runtime engine or equivalent for free. Otherwise not - and any
future enhancements, etc. will I assume depend on raising more money for
that work to be done by the commercial developer using their proprietary
platform. If the company goes out of business or gets bought up (or drops
the product), all bets are off as to the future of such an "investment."

SUPER GREAT POINTS. I (WE) WILL, IN FACT, OWN THE APPLICATION THAT IS
CREATED- AND THEREFORE WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE IT FREELY AVAILABLE TO ANYONE
WITH INTERNET (IT WILL BE EMBEDDED IN A WEB PAGE). BUT, I AM GOING TO
DISCUSS THESE CONCERNS WITH THE FELLOW I'VE BEEN TALKING WITH AT
THINKMAP-- WHO I ACTUALLY WENT TO SCHOOL WITH, AND WE KNOW MANY PEOPLE IN
COMMON, SO HE IS MY BUDDY

As for the visual aspects, I took a look at the online visual thesaurus.
Nice eye candy. I don't find their interface particularly intuitive
though - or really all that effective compared to text.

DID YOU USE THEIR CLASSIC VERSION OR THEIR NEWER VERSION? PERSONALLY I
FIND THEIR CLASSIC VERSION MUCH EASIER TO USE. AND REMEMBER- THINKMAP IS
A SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT APP (BACKEND), AND YOU ARE DISCUSSING THE *VISUAL*
INTERFACE (FRONT END). IF YOU HAVE PROBS WITH THE INTERFACE, IT CAN
DEFINITELY BE MODIFIED! THAT IS WHY DEFINING OUR GOALS (HOMEWORK
QUESTION #1) IS SO CRUCIAL-- YOU SAY DON'T FIND THE INTERFACE EFFECTIVE,
BUT EFFECTIVE FOR WHAT?? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE? I WOULD ALSO
WANT TO MAKE MANY CHANGES TO THE INTERFACE (WHICH OF COURSE WE COULD), I
WILL DELVE INTO WHEN I DO MY HOMEWORK....

In a more immediately relevant vein, someone(s) somewhere, decided what
default visual "weights" and relationships to give various synonyms, etc.
for a chosen word - which is quite different than looking them up in a
text-based format, where each individual implicitly and/or explicitly
determines their preferences and priorities. IMO this is a potential case
of "too much information." There is no absolute basis for indicating that
this synonym is "more important" than that one - context is everything (a
fundamental design principle).

THAT IS, UNLESS YOU INCLUDE SPECIFIC PREFERENCES (I.E., NATIVE TO YOUR
LOCAL REGION, MEDICINAL PLANTS, POLLINATORS, ETC.)--THERE ARE MANY
CRITERIA YOU COULD ENTER, LIKE WHEN YOU DO A BOOLEAN SEARCH.

So for example if guild DB users can't adjust guild element "weights" to
suit their contexts, the DB usefulness is limited (skewed) by the default
choices made, which may be inappropriate across diverse bioregions,
climate zones, microclimates and so on. If users can adjust these, the
complexity required multiplies yet again (and the "who's in charge of
that anyhow?" question arises yet again... ;-).

IF USERS DID NOT ENTER PREFERENCES, THE DEFAULT WOULD PROBABLY BE TRIED-
AND-TESTED GUILD COMBINATIONS FOR A SPECIFIC BIO-REGION. I THINK
BIOREGION/CLIMATE ZONE/MICROCLIMATE IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT
CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS GUILD DESIGN TOOL. SO, IF NOTHING ELSE, YOU WOULD
END UP WITH SOMETHING TAILORED TO YOUR LOCAL ENVIRONMENT. AND THE MORE
INFORMATION IN THE DATABASE, THE MORE REFINED THE OUTCOME OF A SEARCH
WILL BE. AS WITH THE MORE INFORMATION ENTERED, THE MORE REFINED THE
OUTCOME WOULD BE.

This is rather like asking the waiter if the food at his restaurant is
good when he comes to take your order.

ACTUALLY, I WAS TALKING TO HIM MORE AS A FRIEND THAN AS A CLIENT WHEN I
FIRST THOUGHT OF THE IDEA- BECAUSE WE WENT TO SCHOOL TOGETHER. HE IS
YOUNG LIKE ME AND I DON'T THINK HE IS AN EVIL ENTREPRENEUR JUST TRYING TO
GET BUSINESS. DON'T BE SO CYNICAL :)

I'd rather see whatever money could be generated for something like this
circulate within the Permaculture community and fund an open-source
community-developed database/resource, including functional support for
those with limited technological means. Perhaps TouchGraph is mature
enough to make a start with (and contribute to further TouchGraph
development as a reciprocal benefit. That seems more permaculturish to me
than paying for a sealed package.

SOUNDS GREAT TO ME! LET'S DO IT.

I've also been thinking of the economics of it all. Programs
like this seem to need continuous mantanace input. I always say
it took me 1 week to put the pfaf site together and 6 years to
maintain it. There is also need of some sort of editorial input
as info is always being added. Maintance also get harder if the
project has been done by a third party.

Is it going to me a web only thing, or a cd-rom thing? Different
markets and different economics.

But at the end of the day if you can get the money go for it!

Rich

THANKS, RICH. YES I WOULD BE WILLING TO BE THE MODERATOR FOR A FEW
YEARS. I AM YOUNG, INSPIRED, AND WITHOUT TOO MANY ATTACHMENTS (NO KIDS
OR SERIOUS CAREER COMITTMENTS...YET) SO I WOULD DEFINITELY BE WILLING TO
DEDICATE TIME TO THIS FOR A WHILE. AND YES IT WOULD BE WEB-BASED.

CHAD WROTE:
I think I am the person with the skill and motivation to do it; all I
need is cold hard cash. If I were funded for 300 hours @ $15/hr (I'm
worth $50/hr) in 2-4 months I could do some amazing things, with the
permaculture community as the most direct beneficiary.

WHOA THERE CHAD. FORGIVE ME FOR GETTING A BIT SAD WHEN I READ THIS. I'M
CERTAIN YOU COULD DO SOME AMAZING THINGS ON YOUR OWN, BUT LET'S WORK
TOGETHER, NO?

PHEWWWF, THAT'S IT FOR NOW.
BUSY BUSY WEEK, BUT I'LL GET TO MY HOMEWORK OVER THE WEEKEND (AND I HOPE
SOMEONE OUT THERE DOES TOO)

JUST TO RE-ITERATE, REALLY GLAD TO BE DISCUSSING WITH YOU ALL, AND WOULD
LOVE TO POOL OUR IDEAS TOGETHER AND APPROACH THIS COLLEVTIVELY.

LET'S *BE* THE GUILD THAT WE ARE TRYING TO BUILD.

PEACE
*S


"John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:

Aloha,

> I've also been thinking of the economics of it all. Programs
> like this seem to need continuous mantanace input. I always say
> it took me 1 week to put the pfaf site together and 6 years to
> maintain it.

I know what you mean... :-/

> There is also need of some sort of editorial input
> as info is always being added.

I think this is really the crux of the project - more so than the actual
development of a platform for the information.

That is, once there's a functional repository for information, how does
information get added, by whom, and how is it validated?

> Maintance also get harder if the
> project has been done by a third party.

Or is impossible (for the DB engine that is), if the source is
proprietary.

> Is it going to me a web only thing, or a cd-rom thing? Different
> markets and different economics.

I'm still assuming an open license product is being proposed, so
profit-oriented marketing doesn't enter into it. That doesn't mean money
can't be solicited/found and spent creating it though.

I'm also assuming a web app, since CDs will be out of date as soon as
they're
burned if it's a dynamic DB, and would require additional development
time/effort as well.

> p.s. beware of developers. Our favorite hobby is to argue whether
> C/C++/Java/C#/php/xml/sql/wiki is better.

Python and Zope, obviously.

;-) ;-)


John Schinnerer - MA, Whole Systems Design
------------------------------------------
- Eco-Living -
Cultural & Ecological Designing
People - Place - Learning - Integration
john@eco-living.net
http://eco-living.net
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+++++++++++++++
Stephanie Gerson
sgerson@stanfordalumni.org
415.871.5683


____________________________________________________________________





  • [pcplantdb] wowww, Stephanie Gerson, 09/29/2003

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