Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

ocba - Re: [ocba] Top Bar?

ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: Orange County, NC Beekeepers

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Jennifer Keller <jjkeller AT ncsu.edu>
  • To: Just Bee <marty AT justbeenc.com>
  • Cc: "ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org" <ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [ocba] Top Bar?
  • Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 11:20:21 -0500

I am of the same thinking as Randall and completely agree with everything he said.  Both types of hives will work.  Neither is what I would call 'natural', because it is not natural to put bees in a box and open it up to disturb them on a regular basis.  Both types of hives face similar problems with varroa mites and diseases.    I am not totally opposed to top bar since I learned on top bar hives, but am now very thankful to have access to Langstroth hives.  I currently have one top bar hive just for the fun factor, (although there are no bees in it since they died two months ago) but could not imagine having a whole apiary of this type.

I wasn't going to get in on this discussion, but I wanted to pass along an interesting study I heard about at the last EAS meeting.  The New Hampshire beekeepers did a small experiment with top bar hives, using both beginner and experienced beekeepers.  The study was only one season long, and I'm not sure if it was repeated this past year or not, but here is a link to the write up of the experiment with some discussion following.

http://www.nhbeekeepers.org/Top%20Bar%20Final%20Report.pdf

Good luck with whichever type you choose.

Jennifer


On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Just Bee <marty AT justbeenc.com> wrote:
Hi Janet,

I'm guessing you've heard the old beekeeper joke by now: that is...if you ask 5 beekeepers a question you'll get 10 answers!

Randal is mostly right but what's missing is a different perspective based on philosophy. It's obvious by the 10 reasons not to that it's not his deal. I and several others keep TBH's as a choice and they are done all over the world. 

My first comment is that I agree with him in that 3rd world countries are the locations they are used the most. It is mostly because of economics. A langstroth costs would take a families income for months to purchase. Material is scarce and limited. The "African" TBH is a way for families to feed themselves, provide a tradable good Or income. So in the end it's all about the resources you have. Bees grow and flourish just fine in TBH's.

All you have to do is drill 3 holes in one of the bars to place a langstroth med honey super on top of the bars. This allows for easier honey extraction. The longer hives are managed by moving the back wall around to expand or close up the hive: the same as adjusting the space in the Lang. Screen bottoms (IPM) are the same and I use a store bought entrance feeder to feed my girls.

Where we differ is on "natural" and the use of this term by TBH users. It has nothing to do w/ how trees grow! Yes bees came from trees but we put them in langstroth boxes and place them in fields. 

Natural to "most" is meant they draw out their own comb! Not the wax foundation sold today that is actually larger in cell size than what they would make. In short, humans changed it to go in langstroth frames so to grow larger bees- larger bees =more honey! So that is NOT natural! 

As for bees being confused about which way to go In a TBH yea there are cases of that, but more in langstroths because there are more of those.  Mostly that happens because the "beekeeper" failed to reduce the hive size going into Winter. Personally i'm gonna side on the bees...they are millions of years old and know where they put their food. Weird stuff like this happens in ALL hives.

Secondly "natural" is usually grouped with TBH's because most users want to be chemical free! it's a persons perspective toward HOW they want to keep bees. Be it lower cost, ease of back pain by not lifting the hive bodies, letting the bees decide what size cell the want, etc. For me "bee" drawn wax foundation is the way to go! Not the recycled commercial bee keeping Left overs that's made into pre drawn wax foundation. I'm very glad this new trend is becoming the norm. Recent studies have found over 80 chemicals in the wax foundation sold by retailers. 

I completely agree that TBH's are trickier to start with when learning but not impossible! If you can drive a car you can keep bees in TBH. Personally, I learned to drive a 3 speed on the column of a 65 ford....everything else is a piece of cake. :-)

Cheers and welcome to the best hobby you can have!

Marty
just bee


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 20, 2013, at 6:12 PM, Randall Austin <ra41717 AT gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Janet,

Top bar hives are very popular in the 3rd world and are promoted there by the Peace Corp for several reasons. The most notable are:
1) the boxes can be reused as animal troughs, baby cribs, etc. if the beekeeper quits keeping bees, in which case their monetary investment isn't lost
2) the boxes don't demand the consistent construction that Langstroth boxes require, and therefore can be made from a wider variety of materials
3) since the top bars form a solid barrier and only one frame-width is exposed to the bees at a time, these are well suited for keeping highly defensive (i.e. dangerous) Africanized bees

I've done a bit of research on top bar hives and have kept one in order that I can do an intelligent informed comparison. The disadvantages, from my personal experience, include:
1) the nonstandard equipment makes many normal beekeeping management practices more difficult to do. You'll have to design and construct your own feeders, etc. rather than buying them. You will not be able to easily swap frames around, for example you won't be able to buy a nuc from another beekeeper.
2) the lack of a frame to surround the comb makes the comb very fragile, especially when new. Not only does this make inspection difficult (turn the comb sideways and it breaks off), but last summer I had nearly half of my honey-laden combs weaken from the heat and collapse onto the floor of the hive. The bees repaired the breaks by fixing the combs to the floor, the walls and to each other.
3) the bees don't typically affix the comb to the walls of the hive but when they do, great care must be taken to be aware of the problem and release the comb. Otherwise it is easy to rip the comb loose from the top bar.
4) top bar hives are not made for expansion. This has at least two practical implications: a) the size of the hive cannot be expanded during the honey flow. This is accommodated for by harvesting combs as they are filled. My bees easily fill a medium super in per week during the height of the honey flow. If I had to harvest honey several times a week or face swarming, I would be unhappy. b) Inability to change the overall volume also means that the space cannot be effectively contracted to combat small hive beetles. I use a follower board to make the "bee room" smaller but the beetles have free rein on the empty side of the board.
5) top bar hives require more careful management going into winter to avoid starvation. If the cluster is in the center of the hive, surrounded on both sides by honey, it will move either to the front or to the back to move onto new food, leaving the other half of the stores behind. In winter when it is too cold to break cluster, the hive can therefore starve with plenty of stores on the other end. Starvation with honey nearby can sometimes occur with Langstroth hives too, but the design of top bar hives makes this very likely unless the cluster is positioned at the end wall to begin with.

There are folks who try to "sell" top bar hives using flawed logic. Some of these claims include:
1) "Top bar hives are better for do-it-yourselfers because you don't buy the equipment." The truth is that Langstroth hives are just as good (or better) for do-it-yourselfers. I make almost all of my own equipment, except for tedious bits like frames that are cheap to buy. Having built both Langstroth and top bar hives, I'm convinced that building your own Langstroth hive is far easier. Maybe that's why they've been popular for 150 years.
2) "Top bar hives are better because you don't have to use foundation." The truth is that you don't have to use foundation with Langstroth hives either. I've started using foundation-less frames in my brood chambers with great success. As I mentioned above, having a supportive frame completely surrounding a foundation-less frame is a big practical advantage.
3) "Top bar hives are better because you don't have to use an extractor." The truth is that you don't have to use an extractor with Langstroth frames either. You can make cut-comb honey or crush comb to extract just like with top bars.
4) "Top bar hives are easier on your back." The truth is that top bar hives aren't the only way to do this. Some folks make long Langstroth hives, combining Langstroth advantages with the benefit of no lifting. Some folks use all-medium 8-frame boxes to lighten the load. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
5) "Top bar hives are more natural." The truth is that bees in their native European forests generally nest in large standing trees, not logs on the ground, and it is part of innate bee biology that they move up into food reserves.
6) "Top bar hives are better against pests and disease." The truth is that if you study honey bee pests and diseases, you'll learn that there is no way that a colony in a tree, Langstroth hive, top bar hive, wall of a house, etc. could possibly have any advantage over a colony in any other container. Wishful thinking is a wonderful thing, but it isn't real. Periodic replacement of brood comb can have benefits, but you can do that with either top bar or Langstroth hives.

I'm not against top bar hives, but I am against silly dogmatic claims about them, especially ones that are more divisive than informative. I encourage people to experiment with top bars hives AFTER they have gained some expertise with a conventional hive. Why? It's like learning to drive a car --- should you learn on one with automatic transmission or a stick shift? I say learn on automatic, so you can get a handle on traffic safety, etc. without also having to worry about stalling out at intersections or rolling backwards on hills. Same with beekeeping. Learn the tried-and-true first (after all, it is tried-and-true for a reason), and then later enjoy playing around with alternatives.

If you already have the basics of beekeeping down, Wyatt Mangum has just come out with a comprehensive tome on top bar beekeeping. I haven't read it yet so cannot comment on it, but Dr. Mangum is a smart guy and has a good reputation as a very experienced bee researcher. Rather than depending on internet yackity yack, if I were you I would get a copy of his book and see what he has to say. You can order it here:
https://signature-book.com/New3Books/G4051%20Mangum%20web%20page.htm

Randall Austin


On 1/20/2013 12:28 AM, Janet Weinberg wrote:
I have spent hours on the web searching for bees and stuff and have read a lot about Top Bar hives.    They sound good.  Anyone have them? 
Janet


_________________________________________
ocba mailing list | North Carolina Beekeeping| http://www.theocba.org/
Manage Your Subscription: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ocba/

_________________________________________
ocba mailing list | North Carolina Beekeeping| http://www.theocba.org/
Manage Your Subscription: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ocba/

_________________________________________
ocba mailing list | North Carolina Beekeeping| http://www.theocba.org/
Manage Your Subscription: http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ocba/




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page