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  • From: "birdcr AT concentric.net" <birdcr AT concentric.net>
  • To: Janet Weinberg <janetweinberg AT yahoo.com>
  • Cc: "ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org" <ocba AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [ocba] Top Bar?
  • Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:22:11 -0600 (CST)

Janet,

I have a home made modified Kenyan Top Bar hive. It survived the
winter so far, bees bringing in pollen today in fact. The 4
langstroth hives in my yard did not make it. I do little for mite
load management, hoping to work with survivor bees.

Randall presented some good facts about top bars.
The my design has no floor other than 1/8 inch hardware cloth
nothing for the mites to land on if in case they fall out of the
hive. In langstroth hives each set of boxes and frames make it
easier for the mites to fall and remain in the hive.

I use a standard boardman feeder inside the hive. The top bar is
deep enough to place the boardman with a quart jar inside with
room to spare.

These top bar bees were the easiest to work with in my yard and
never ever are they aggressive. My langstroth bees seemed to get
harder to work the more boxes placed on them. You end up killing
bees every time you inspect a langstroth hive and rarely with the
top bar hive.

There are disadvantages to top bar hives if you are shooting for
heavy honey production. My top bar bees were early in the season
my weakest hive, now they live.

Oh never a problem yet with comb falling off, one does need to
learn how to handle fragile comb when it is new. I know some
people strap on hair combs to the top bars that they use as clamps
on the comb for re attaching fallen combs.

Best part of the top bar to me is holding a full bar of comb slam
packed with brood and bees.

What ever you choose I'm sure the bees with be happy either way.
If you want lots of honey get a langstroth.

My top bar hive here are photos
http://rlephoto.blogspot.com/2012/04/new-kenya-top-bar-hive.html

Cheers,
Randy Emmitt
www.rlephoto.blogspot.com



On Sun Jan 20 17:12:32 CST 2013, Randall Austin
<ra41717 AT gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Janet,
>
> Top bar hives are very popular in the 3rd world and are promoted
> there by the Peace Corp for several reasons. The most notable
> are:
> 1) the boxes can be reused as animal troughs, baby cribs, etc. if
> the beekeeper quits keeping bees, in which case their monetary
> investment isn't lost
> 2) the boxes don't demand the consistent construction that
> Langstroth boxes require, and therefore can be made from a wider
> variety of materials
> 3) since the top bars form a solid barrier and only one
> frame-width is exposed to the bees at a time, these are well
> suited for keeping highly defensive (i.e. dangerous) Africanized
> bees
>
> I've done a bit of research on top bar hives and have kept one in
> order that I can do an intelligent informed comparison. The
> disadvantages, from my personal experience, include:
> 1) the nonstandard equipment makes many normal beekeeping
> management practices more difficult to do. You'll have to design
> and construct your own feeders, etc. rather than buying them. You
> will not be able to easily swap frames around, for example you
> won't be able to buy a nuc from another beekeeper.
> 2) the lack of a frame to surround the comb makes the comb very
> fragile, especially when new. Not only does this make inspection
> difficult (turn the comb sideways and it breaks off), but last
> summer I had nearly half of my honey-laden combs weaken from the
> heat and collapse onto the floor of the hive. The bees repaired
> the breaks by fixing the combs to the floor, the walls and to
> each other.
> 3) the bees don't typically affix the comb to the walls of the
> hive but when they do, great care must be taken to be aware of
> the problem and release the comb. Otherwise it is easy to rip the
> comb loose from the top bar.
> 4) top bar hives are not made for expansion. This has at least
> two practical implications: a) the size of the hive cannot be
> expanded during the honey flow. This is accommodated for by
> harvesting combs as they are filled. My bees easily fill a medium
> super in per week during the height of the honey flow. If I had
> to harvest honey several times a week or face swarming, I would
> be unhappy. b) Inability to change the overall volume also means
> that the space cannot be effectively contracted to combat small
> hive beetles. I use a follower board to make the "bee room"
> smaller but the beetles have free rein on the empty side of the
> board.
> 5) top bar hives require more careful management going into
> winter to avoid starvation. If the cluster is in the center of
> the hive, surrounded on both sides by honey, it will move either
> to the front or to the back to move onto new food, leaving the
> other half of the stores behind. In winter when it is too cold to
> break cluster, the hive can therefore starve with plenty of
> stores on the other end. Starvation with honey nearby can
> sometimes occur with Langstroth hives too, but the design of top
> bar hives makes this very likely unless the cluster is positioned
> at the end wall to begin with.
>
> There are folks who try to "sell" top bar hives using flawed
> logic. Some of these claims include:
> 1) "Top bar hives are better for do-it-yourselfers because you
> don't buy the equipment." The truth is that Langstroth hives are
> just as good (or better) for do-it-yourselfers. I make almost all
> of my own equipment, except for tedious bits like frames that are
> cheap to buy. Having built both Langstroth and top bar hives, I'm
> convinced that building your own Langstroth hive is far easier.
> Maybe that's why they've been popular for 150 years.
> 2) "Top bar hives are better because you don't have to use
> foundation." The truth is that you don't have to use foundation
> with Langstroth hives either. I've started using foundation-less
> frames in my brood chambers with great success. As I mentioned
> above, having a supportive frame completely surrounding a
> foundation-less frame is a big practical advantage.
> 3) "Top bar hives are better because you don't have to use an
> extractor." The truth is that you don't have to use an extractor
> with Langstroth frames either. You can make cut-comb honey or
> crush comb to extract just like with top bars.
> 4) "Top bar hives are easier on your back." The truth is that top
> bar hives aren't the only way to do this. Some folks make long
> Langstroth hives, combining Langstroth advantages with the
> benefit of no lifting. Some folks use all-medium 8-frame boxes to
> lighten the load. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
> 5) "Top bar hives are more natural." The truth is that bees in
> their native European forests generally nest in large standing
> trees, not logs on the ground, and it is part of innate bee
> biology that they move up into food reserves.
> 6) "Top bar hives are better against pests and disease." The
> truth is that if you study honey bee pests and diseases, you'll
> learn that there is no way that a colony in a tree, Langstroth
> hive, top bar hive, wall of a house, etc. could possibly have any
> advantage over a colony in any other container. Wishful thinking
> is a wonderful thing, but it isn't real. Periodic replacement of
> brood comb can have benefits, but you can do that with either top
> bar or Langstroth hives.
>
> I'm not against top bar hives, but I am against silly dogmatic
> claims about them, especially ones that are more divisive than
> informative. I encourage people to experiment with top bars hives
> AFTER they have gained some expertise with a conventional hive.
> Why? It's like learning to drive a car --- should you learn on
> one with automatic transmission or a stick shift? I say learn on
> automatic, so you can get a handle on traffic safety, etc.
> without also having to worry about stalling out at intersections
> or rolling backwards on hills. Same with beekeeping. Learn the
> tried-and-true first (after all, it is tried-and-true for a
> reason), and then later enjoy playing around with alternatives.
>
> If you already have the basics of beekeeping down, Wyatt Mangum
> has just come out with a comprehensive tome on top bar
> beekeeping. I haven't read it yet so cannot comment on it, but
> Dr. Mangum is a smart guy and has a good reputation as a very
> experienced bee researcher. Rather than depending on internet
> yackity yack, if I were you I would get a copy of his book and
> see what he has to say. You can order it here:
> https://signature-book.com/New3Books/G4051%20Mangum%20web%20page.htm
>
> Randall Austin
>
>
> On 1/20/2013 12:28 AM, Janet Weinberg wrote:
>> I have spent hours on the web searching for bees and stuff and
>> have read a lot about Top Bar hives. They sound good. Anyone
>> have them?
>> Janet
>>
>>
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