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  • From: Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com>
  • To: mailing list at ibiblio - Northamerican Allied Fruit Experimenters <nafex@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [nafex] mulching trees
  • Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 10:12:13 -0600

It sounds like the theory is that mulch will

1) keep roots of other plants away from the "feeding" area of the tree, and

2) break down to supply nutrients to the tree

as well as holding in moisture.

Our invasive grass can send its roots 2-3 feet into an area even if the tops of the grass cannot poke up there. So I can have a mulched area with no grass showing but the area is still completely filled with the grass's feeding roots.

So what can I do to keep the area around the tree free from these grass roots? Maybe if I put down weed barrier in a six foot diameter circle around the tree, I might end up with a foot or two circle around the tree without grass roots. But that amounts to basically "paving over" my entire field. And then I have no surface layer of mulch to add nutrients and organic matter at all. Help!

In our dry climate wood chips would never break down. They would still be intact wood chips 10 or 15 years later.

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book (2013)
(505) 281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mountain Time, 7 days

On 5/25/2015 12:42 PM, Lee Reich wrote:
Yhere’s little empirical support for the use of ramial wood chips, as opposed
to any old wood chips. All the theories about white rots, brown rots,
softwood mulch, etc. sound very solid but haven’t been shown — as far as I
know — to hold water in practice. I’ve seen the Canadian paper that everyone
refers to in support of ramial wood chips; basically, if you read it
carefully, it promotes use of ramial wood chips without any supporting data.

Michael Phillips reference to ramial wood chips rightly points out the higher
nutrient composition of this younger wood. But nutrients can be added, if
needed, which is not usually the case after wood chip mulch of any kind has
been used and replenished over the years. He’s wrong about any wood chip
mulch robbing nitrogen from plants during decomposition. As a mulch,
decomposition is slow and at the interface of soil and mulch. A steady state
is achieved with nitrogen being re-released into the soil at about the same
rate as it’s being tied up. This is not only theory: I and many others have
noticed this in practice. It is when wood material is mixed into the soil
that plants get temporarily starved for nitrogen.

Practically any material is valuable as mulch. I would not turn away a source
of wood chips made from older wood. The important point is to keep the ground
covered with whatever you can get your hands on.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog
<http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

On May 25, 2015, at 1:13 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>
wrote:

Mulch hay often has a strong lignin component (Acid Detergent Fiber ADF)— at
least the worst hays from the point of view of feeding horses do.

Here, (what is in the feed stores) —herbicide free mature grass hay and straw
hay-- as a mulch under trees has been very good. I think shredded (not
chipped if you can get it) composted ramial wood (aka native mulch) works
even better (but that is in an area where there is a lot of both hay and
ramial wood mulch) and I need to pay for whatever I use.

If one were cheaper or easier to get where I was, I would quickly take either.

I think either would work much better than turf or any green, succulent
plants. I’m pretty sure I can find some studies on that if I go back a few
years and look, but they would only apply in particular climates. Ramial
lasts under a tree much longer in wet hot climates than does hay and is weed
and herbicide free here. What will work in any given place is always more
complicated. See

http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm
<http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/id-190.htm>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramial_chipped_wood>

For specifics on orchards see
http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php

<http://www.groworganicapples.com/organic-orcharding-articles/ramial-wood-chip-primer.php>

Bob


"Share What You Grow and What You Know!"

Bob Randall, Ph.D.

http://yearroundgardening.me







On May 24, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:

I guess I would have to see some data comparing various growth or yield
parameters for the same trees growing under the same conditions with, say,
wood chip mulch vs. hay mulch. My guess is that rigorous comparisons for this
do not exist.

Not that I have anything against woody mulches. Leaves and wood chips blanket
the ground beneath most of my trees (although some years, the mulch has been
hay). I use wood chips and leaves because they are deposited for free at my
site by arborists and landscapers.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
<http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>
http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/
<http://leereich.com/>>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

On May 24, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net
<mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>> wrote:

What Lee says is true also. Trees can live in all sorts of crazy places and
even “thrive.” I have seen them on rock cliffs.
I used to live on the edge of the Sahara. There was a famous tree “The Tree
of Teneré”. Nothing at all living around it for miles/kilometers. See for
yourself. Do an image search or

http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/
<http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/>
<http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/
<http://www.weirduniverse.net/blog/categories/C53/P20/>>

But they will do best with rotted lignin materials.

Bob


"Share What You Grow and What You Know!"

Bob Randall. Ph.d.






On May 24, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com
<mailto:leeareich@gmail.com>> wrote:

While what Bob says is true, trees seem to also thrive when growing in grass,
as long as it’s not too competitive (i.e. mowed low and frequently), or being
mulched with low lignin materials.

I once had to chuckle at a presentation by Dr. Ingaham, when she was
espousing the need of trees for a fungally dominated environment. The
audience was nodding their heads in assent as they sat beneath a lusty,
mature red oak thriving in mown lawn.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>
<http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>> <http://www.leereich.com/blog
<http://www.leereich.com/blog><http://www.leereich.com/blog <http://www.leereich.com/blog>>>
http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>
<http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/> <http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>>>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

On May 24, 2015, at 12:23 PM, Bob Randall <YearRoundGardening@comcast.net
<mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net> <mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net
<mailto:YearRoundGardening@comcast.net>>> wrote:

With mulch there is always a dilemma between what is desirable and feasible. In nature, trees life in places with
fungal dominant soils and prefer a forest floor type mulch with lots of lignin in layers from uncomposted on top to
humus on the bottom. Grasses with few exceptions prefer a bacteria dominated soil. So if you have your choice mulch
with shredded tree branches composted or leaves or straw, but not green succulent herbaceous material including grass.
See The Soil Biology Primer at http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/
<http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/

<http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/

<http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/><http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/
<http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/main/soils/health/biology/>>>

All this is made more complicated by the lack of moisture in many places, so
that not only is there not much material to mulch with, but also it takes
forever to rot unless it goes through the gut of animals.

What is possible in any given place therefore is based on knowing what the
aim is and doing your best with in cost and labor constraints to get a
solution.

I live in warm Houston where in El Nino years it never stops raining it
seems, everything except concrete rots, and branches of trees grow at an
alarming clip, so mulching is simply a matter of finding the time to do it.
Santa Fe is dry and cold a lot, so not much grows or rots. Your best bet is
to find plant material that is an industrial byproduct I would guess.

Bob Randall

"Share What You Grow and What You Know!"

Bob Randall, Ph.D.

http://yearroundgardening.me









On May 24, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Lee Reich <leeareich@gmail.com> wrote:

How about letting the grass grow wherever it wants but keeping it mown short.
The organic matter from the clippings will improve the soil and the constant
mowing can keep the grass from becoming too competitive.

Lee Reich, PhD
Come visit my farmden at http://www.leereich.com/blog
<http://www.leereich.com/blog>
http://leereich.com/ <http://leereich.com/>

Books by Lee Reich:
A Northeast Gardener's Year
The Pruning Book
Weedless Gardening
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Landscaping with Fruit
Grow Fruit Naturally

On May 19, 2015, at 8:44 PM, Jay Cutts <orders@cuttsreviews.com> wrote:

Folks,

Here's a dilemma I've been wrestling with for years. I'm at 7000 feet in NM.
I have a number of rather small trees planted out in a field. There is a very
invasive grass that grows in the field - I think it's Western Wheat grass -
that sends out underground runners for 4 or 5 feet.

I don't know how to protect the soil immediately under the tree and then out
under the drip line and a little further. In some places I've put down two
layers of weed barrier, covering maybe a circle with a diameter of 4-5 feet.
It does keep the grass from coming through but the grass roots are still
pervasive in the covered area. After a while, the grasses do poke through the
weed barrier.

I'd prefer to have a nice circle of organic mulch that would break down in
that area but then the grass goes completely wild, growing right through the
mulch.

I'm assuming that letting the grass grow under the tree is bad. I guess it
will use up nutrients and just feels like it's choking the tree out.

I'm wondering if there is something I can plant under the trees that would
outcompete the weedy grass. The weed grass doesn't do as well if it gets
shaded out (the trees are too small to create shade) though it will still
spread.

If I planted something like alfalfa, could I plant it right up to the base of
a young tree? If I leave the area immediately under the tree bare or mulched,
the grass will come in.

We only get 18 inches of rain a year, so anything that is planted for a cover
crop is going to have survive on that or it will be stealing water from the
tree.

Another issue is that the soft, mulched and watered area around the base of
the trees is perfect for attracting gophers. I've had gophers down a 5 year
old tree by gnawing off the base in the winter. Who knows how much other
damage they're doing underground to the tree roots. So the nicer I make the
soil around the trees, the more gopher damage I have. Help!

Regards,

Jay

Jay Cutts
Director, Cutts Graduate Reviews
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Prep Book
Lead Author, Barron's MCAT Flash Cards
Lead Author, Barron's LSAT Prep Book
(505)-281-0684
10 am to 10 pm Mt Time, 7 days


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