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  • From: Dion Petaros <petaros@gmail.com>
  • To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [MSAR] MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 83, Issue 5
  • Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:52:18 -0600

Irv and Una
 
I agree 100% with you that beginners do fine with a Polaris Silva ($10) having all the features you list.  That is in fact the compass I recommend to my "basic" students so they don't spend much money until they become more proficient and learn the "mission" they will use the tool for.  On the other hand, the $4.88 compass (whether the baseplate or the "engineer" - lensatic - model) are NOTORIOUSLY innacurate.  In fact I have over 12 of them in my office RIGHT NOW that are a minimum of 10 degrees off.  If that is what we are going to teach our new trainees to use then shame on us.
 
Bob
 
I"m sorry to disagree with you, but after 24 years of military service, including 6 years as infantry (platoon leader, company commander) followed by thousands of hours as aircraft commander in C-21, C-23, C-24, C-26, and C-130 models as well as tens of thousands of hours as PIC in civilian aircraft from Cessna 150s to Boeing 757s, I can not in good conscience ever recommend equipment that is "dime store" quality. This is especially true when the lives of our subjects (if not our trainees) are dependent on the quality of the tool.  I ask again "What is your life (or the life of our subjects) worth"?  What is the message we are sending our trainees?   The truth is that SAR professionals (yes Bob if you're going to be a professional it doesn't matter whether you're paid or not) will spend THOUSANDS of dollars on SAR equipment within the first year or two of entering this community.  And now that the Feds (courtesy of NIMS typing criteria) will be mandating that everyone be trained and certified as a ground searcher BEFORE training in their specialty (and BTW - the draft regs DID NOT include grandfathering in current SAR specialists!) we better prepare to spend $$$ on training and good equipment or find another sandbox to play in.
 
One other note.  As a former member and Instructor (I now live in TX and OK) on the GA DNR MSRT (the State of Georgia's designated SAR "agency") I can assure you that if volunteer assets arrive on scene with $4.88 compasses, they are not likely to get deployed in the field.
 
Now I'll shut up and let you folks proceed as you see fit.  I just hope your new trainees will quickly learn, just as NASAR FunSAR or MRA 101 students do, that they will need $100s of $$ in equipment just to begin training.
 
Regards to all,
 
Dion
 


 
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 12:21 PM, <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 83, Issue 2 (Dion Petaros)
  2. Compass for SAR (Una Smith)
  3. Land nav training in Georgia USA (Una Smith)
  4. Re: Compass for SAR (E.S.)
  5. Re: Compass for SAR (Una Smith)
  6. Re: Compass for SAR (E.S.)
  7. Re: Compass for SAR (Una Smith)
  8. Re: Compass for SAR (Una Smith)
  9. Re: Compass for SAR (forgednstl@windstream.net)
 10. Re: Compass for SAR (Irvin Lichtenstein)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:23:53 -0600
From: Dion Petaros <petaros@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 83, Issue 2
To: msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
       <bda5c8651001221523j18c8da79we6aad6dffb8bd335@mail.gmail.com">bda5c8651001221523j18c8da79we6aad6dffb8bd335@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi Folks

I'm just curious (as an Instructor - military and civilian - of Land Nav
among other subjects) what compass the post for NGMSAR is discussing.  When
my students bring a $5 WalMart special I immediately confiscate it.  I then
ask them "what is your life worth?".  That is how we should approach our
compasses and Land Nav in general.  It is the first and most important skill
of all searchers MSAR or not.  Anyone who says a $4.88 compass is adequate
is not someone the professional SAR operator should be going to for
instruction.

To the North GA  members of this list, I suggest you contact Jim Greenway
(Bartow County) www.mountainpathfinder.com if you want good Land Nav
Instruction.

OK Rant off now!

Regards,

Dion

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:21 PM, <msar-riders-request@lists.ibiblio.org>wrote:

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>
>
> This "digest" of posts to MSAR-Riders unhappily is not threaded; to read
> MSAR-Riders in a more user-friendly threaded mode, try our web archive (
> https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/msar-riders/).  The web archive is
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>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. North Georgia Mounted Search and Rescue ("NGMSAR") (Steve de Lyra)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 12:38:55 -0500
> From: "Steve de Lyra" <stevd@windstream.net>
> Subject: [MSAR] North Georgia Mounted Search and Rescue ("NGMSAR")
> To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <A7528272AD17433794D0089A4E911196@STEVED>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Greetings,
>
> I would like to share with all of you the notice we have sent to the over
> 30 individuals who have expressed an interest in NGMSAR.  We even had a guy
> who wanted to join with his ATV.  I told him that although our mounts did
> produce some exhaust, it was not the by-product of an internal combustion
> engine.
>
> Again thanks to all who have supported us in the past.  We will undoudtedly
> need more help as we go further down the road to establishing a trained,
> functional MSAR unit.
> #
>
> Greetings friends of the North Georgia Mounted Search and Rescue,
>
> You are getting this e-mail because you either attended the initial meeting
> on 10 DEC 09, or have contacted us since then, or someone gave me your name
> and contact information.  Thank you for your interest in our fledgling
> organization.
>
> We are planning our initial training session in Land Navigation for Sunday,
> 24 JAN 10 at 1:00 pm.  The instructor will be Col. Bob Eikenberry, and the
> class will be about 2 hours.  After the class those who have horses are
> invited to go on a trail ride - but please note that this is not part of the
> class, and is not an event hosted by NGMSAR.  If you do bring a horse, you
> should have a copy of a valid (a year old or less) negative Coggins.
>
> You will need a compass.  Walmart has an acceptable one for $4.88.  You
> should also wear comfortable hiking boots with ankle support.  Chairs are
> recommended also.  There will be some walking - the distance will depend on
> what you feel comfortable doing.  If you have an ailment which limits or
> precludes walking - come anyway.  The "classroom" part will be valuable.
>  And Bob will offer "extra help" to anyone who needs some tutoring.
>
> We will meet at 1:00 pm at the Jake Mountain horse trailer parking lot.
>
> Directions are:
>
>  a.. From South, N. 400 past Hwy 53 to 136 West, to Hwy 9 North, to 52
> West,  about 4 miles look for the Grizzle Store at Nimblewill Church Rd (on
> right),  about 1 1/2 miles to Jake Mtn. horse camp on right.
>  b.. From North or East; around Dahlonega on Hwy 52 West about 7 miles to
>  Nimblewill Church rd., right 1 1/2 miles on right.
>  c.. From West; Hwy 52, 2 miles into Lumpkin County, left on the western
> end of  Nimblewill Church rd., about 2 miles on left.
>
> Please note this is a fair weather only event.  If it rains or snows that
> day, we will cancel and re-schedule.  There is no shelter - and we don't
> have a tent.
>
> If you have any friends who would like to join us, please contact me or
> have them contact me.  We are very excited about the response to our media
> coverage and we have grown from 9 who attended the initial meeting to about
> 20.  At this number we can be a viable unit, but we would like to have more
> members.
>
> On a final note, we have to be concerned about liability as an
> organization.  We have looked into the types of coverage available and what
> we would need.  One of the first things we need to do is to get incorporated
> as a not for profit organization.  If anyone getting this note is an
> attorney - or knows an attorney who will help us on a pro bono basis -
> please let me know.  We also need to select officers.  And we will have to
> discuss some kind of dues or membership fees to cover the cost of insurance.
>
> We are excited about our first training session.  See you at Jake Mountain!
>
> Safe riding,
>
> Bob Eikenberry and Steve de Lyra
>
> #
>
> Anyone who is able to join us on 24 JAN is more than welcome.  Please let
> me know if you can do so - we'll find a place to put you up and feed your
> horses.
>
> All the best,
> Steve
>
> Stephen J. de Lyra
> Telephone:    +1 706 265 8182
> Fax:               +1 706 216 0082
> Mobile:          +1 678 677 2907
> e-mail:           stevd@windstream.net
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> End of MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 83, Issue 2
> ******************************************
>



--
Always With Honor
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:12:03 -0700
From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20100123001203.GA27274@att.net">20100123001203.GA27274@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I have no idea what a "$5 WalMart special" is.  In any case, a compass
should not be judged by its price nor where it comes from, but by its
features and its balance (or lack thereof) for the part of this planet
in which it will be used.

A compass that is entirely adequate for SAR can be had for about $10,
and has a lanyard, liquid filled rotating capsule, glow in the dark
points, and clear base plate with distance ruler matched to the most
commonly used map scales.

       Una Smith
       New Mexico


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:22:48 -0700
From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: [MSAR] Land nav training in Georgia USA
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20100123002248.GB27274@att.net">20100123002248.GB27274@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Another source of land navigation training in Georgia is the Georgia
Orienteering Club (http://www.gaorienteering.org/).  Their membership
includes national leaders in teaching the sport, which means teaching
land navigation.

       Una Smith
       New Mexico


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:27:31 -0700
From: "E.S." <ES212@QWEST.NET>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000f01ca9bc3$08bc8120$4200a8c0@LIFEBOOK>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
       reply-type=original

save on your lunch not on your emergency tools...... try to buy the best for
less. a good working compass when you need it, it's priceless....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Una Smith" <una.smith@att.net>
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:12 PM
Subject: [MSAR] Compass for SAR


>I have no idea what a "$5 WalMart special" is.  In any case, a compass
> should not be judged by its price nor where it comes from, but by its
> features and its balance (or lack thereof) for the part of this planet
> in which it will be used.
>
> A compass that is entirely adequate for SAR can be had for about $10,
> and has a lanyard, liquid filled rotating capsule, glow in the dark
> points, and clear base plate with distance ruler matched to the most
> commonly used map scales.
>
> Una Smith
> New Mexico
> _______________________________________________
> MSAR-Riders mailing list
> MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 17:50:33 -0700
From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20100123005033.GA27454@att.net">20100123005033.GA27454@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 05:27:31PM -0700, E.S. wrote:
>save on your lunch not on your emergency tools

I don't eat crap for lunch and I don't buy crap tools.  Some low cost
compasses are fine tools for SAR.

I own a $500 compass, one of the best for some field work I do, but I
don't use it for SAR.  It is far more accurate than needed for SAR, has
other features not needed for SAR, and lacks some features I want for
SAR, especially for MSAR.  In particular, it lacks any way to attach a
lanyard.  For SAR I want a compass I can use horseback, in rain, while
wearing thick gloves or even mittens, without danger of losing it.

       Una Smith
       New Mexico


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:02:54 -0700
From: "E.S." <ES212@QWEST.NET>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000c01ca9bd0$2e3cf490$4200a8c0@LIFEBOOK>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
       reply-type=original

I didn't talk about you personally, just as a general speaking.... a $30-40
compass will do and I secure it with a string to my  belt ,


----- Original Message -----
From: "Una Smith" <una.smith@att.net>
To: "Mounted search and rescue" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR


> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 05:27:31PM -0700, E.S. wrote:
>>save on your lunch not on your emergency tools
>
> I don't eat crap for lunch and I don't buy crap tools.  Some low cost
> compasses are fine tools for SAR.
>
> I own a $500 compass, one of the best for some field work I do, but I
> don't use it for SAR.  It is far more accurate than needed for SAR, has
> other features not needed for SAR, and lacks some features I want for
> SAR, especially for MSAR.  In particular, it lacks any way to attach a
> lanyard.  For SAR I want a compass I can use horseback, in rain, while
> wearing thick gloves or even mittens, without danger of losing it.
>
> Una Smith
> New Mexico
> _______________________________________________
> MSAR-Riders mailing list
> MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:21:50 -0700
From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
Cc: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20100123022150.GA27891@att.net">20100123022150.GA27891@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Bob Eikenberry wrote:
>A compass is one tool, but [...] not the main tool.  Terrain reading

Yes, reading the terrain is by far the most important skill in land
navigation.  Orienteers call this "orienting the map" and "staying in
contact with the map".  If you stay oriented, so you know where you
are on the map, rarely do you need the compass.  Advanced orienteers
never compete without a compass, but most of us orienteering teachers
teach orienteering without one, precisely so that beginners learn to
pay attention to the terrain features all around them, and relate the
terrain to the map.

I took a 9yo and 14yo out in the field with me for a couple of days.
Then they competed in a 4-hr rogaine (a style of orienteering without
a set course) and came in second, behind a pair of very experienced
adult rogainers and way ahead of 60 JROTC cadets.

The best tool for the job is not always an expensive one.

       Una Smith
       New Mexico


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:24:51 -0700
From: Una Smith <una.smith@att.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20100123022451.GB27891@att.net">20100123022451.GB27891@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 07:02:54PM -0700, E.S. wrote:
>I didn't talk about you personally, just as a general speaking.... a $30-40
>compass will do and I secure it with a string to my  belt ,

Many $30-40 compasses will do, but some won't.

My point remains that what matters is not price, but features.

       Una


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 20:06:35 -0600
From: <forgednstl@windstream.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20100122200635.GPH4D.388811.root@ispmxfep13-z01>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Una,

Sorry, that someone went off on partial information.  A compass is one tool, but in my Marine Corps training and Naval Flight Training and later Tactics Instructor Training, it was not the main tool.  Terrain reading, by eye, by forward looking radar, night vision goggles and sophisticated software, the compass was one of the crosschecks and at times unreadable with goggles.  My emphasis is on terrain reading and staying oriented on horseback with the compass as one of the tools.  We are starting with volunteers and selling the importance of land nav and not asking them to show up at session one with a $70 compass, when my  tests have shown this infamous $4.88 compass giving good results.

My apologies for any transgression of what may be percieved as the only way to navigate, just 40 years experience and two wars sugesting that it is not the only way and I never depend on only one device if possible.  Still, obviously, feeling my way in an all volunteer organization and selling concepts.

Respectfully,

Bob Eikenberry
---- Una Smith <una.smith@att.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 05:27:31PM -0700, E.S. wrote:
> >save on your lunch not on your emergency tools
>
> I don't eat crap for lunch and I don't buy crap tools.  Some low cost
> compasses are fine tools for SAR.
>
> I own a $500 compass, one of the best for some field work I do, but I
> don't use it for SAR.  It is far more accurate than needed for SAR, has
> other features not needed for SAR, and lacks some features I want for
> SAR, especially for MSAR.  In particular, it lacks any way to attach a
> lanyard.  For SAR I want a compass I can use horseback, in rain, while
> wearing thick gloves or even mittens, without danger of losing it.
>
>       Una Smith
>       New Mexico
> _______________________________________________
> MSAR-Riders mailing list
> MSAR-Riders@lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/msar-riders



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 22:34:59 -0500
From: "Irvin Lichtenstein" <ilichten1@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Compass for SAR
To: "'Mounted search and rescue'" <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <0KWO00LWFKMCROY5@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net">0KWO00LWFKMCROY5@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

For the over 30 years I have been using compasses I have found the most
reliable to those in aircraft but it is hard to take a gyro on a horse.



Realistically, what we used to call the $9.95 special was usually more than
adequate. The features to look for are:

1.    repeatability-if I take a bearing from the same place to the same
point is it within 5 degrees magnetic each time?

2.    clear base so I can see the map through the compass

3.    map scales or ruler edge along base-self explanatory

4.    5 degree graduations

5.    lanyard holes or even better a lanyard with it

6.    needle bearing is a all angle-can't knock needle off

7.    reflective marks on needle so you can tell which end is which

8.    large enough to be seen and read to 5 degrees

9.    large enough to be found if dropped but not large enough to maim you
if it hits you

10.large enough to be held in frozen hands

11.all weather, no temperature limits, no water problems

12.nice to have: flexible bezel so I take a bearing and set the outer ring
to it as an aiming stick

13.nice to have: a lensatic feature (mirror in lid and sight), again for
aiming



The most important feature of a land navigation compass, particularly on
horseback, is the brain of the user.

Most of our sight lines are short here in the woods, and being able to spot
landmarks or terrain features and associate them with the maps and the image
the command post is trying to create is what is important.  I worry that a
field task has missed a bend in the creek or a drainage, not that they are
44.5 degrees north of west on course.  Besides, unless someone has very
competent navigation equipment you are never going to hold course to a
degree on a horse.



Irv Lichtenstein

Chief of Operations

SE PA SAR

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******************************************



--
Always With Honor


  • Re: [MSAR] MSAR-Riders Digest, Vol 83, Issue 5, Dion Petaros, 01/23/2010

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