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Subject: Mounted search and rescue

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  • From: Doug Reynaud <dreynaud@openspaceauthority.org>
  • To: Mounted search and rescue <msar-riders@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [MSAR] Paid Personnel are different
  • Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:45:28 -0800

Thanks for the follow up ideas Irv- Doug

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:39 AM, IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN <ilichten1@verizon.net> wrote:

The only way around the FLSA is to quit your  job. Actually the creative way is to negotiate an agreement with your employer that covers the payroll and paid time definitions.  Rural route carriers are contractors, they get paid by the route and provide everything themselves, just as FedEX local delivery drivers do, and most route salesmen as well so that model won't work.  The federal rules don't require you to have a union, just a collective bargaining agreement.  Your department must have a personnel policy manual and an employment contract of some sort.  The idea would be to draw up a supplemental agreement for mounted special duty that covers the questions as to when a shift starts, who pays for what, is there special duty pay involved, how do you qualify for the special duty, etc. This agreement would apply to all mounted officers and would be the collective bargaining agreement required to override the FLSA.  If there are any other special duty opportunities they should also be covered by the same agreement, different paragraphs for PWC, ATV, Bicycle if needed.  A written agreement is always helpful in clarifying these practices. And while you may volunteer for the special duty opportunity you are not a volunteer patrolman, you are an employee of the agency so a contract is a good thing to have for both sides.

First, see if such agreements exist for other agencies or take home patrol cars, use of unmarked cars by detectives 24/7, etc.  There should be a borrowed equipment policy to repay civilians or other agencies when your department borrows vehicles, tools, or services as well. These may be statutes or ordinances, not conventional contracts so look hard. Then draft an agreement that would make you happy and make sure the other prospective riders will accept it.  The last step is to get your boss to accept it and the agency solicitor to bless it.

 

Irv Lichtenstein   

 


From: msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:msar-riders-bounces@lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Doug Reynaud
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:24 AM
To: Mounted search and rescue
Subject: Re: [MSAR] Paid Personnel are different

 

Irv- Thank you for the information, have you any creative Ideas to circumvent these points, we are not union and it is not a volunteer program i am dealing with-Doug

On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 9:38 PM, IRVIN LICHTENSTEIN <ilichten1@verizon.net> wrote:

--------------------------------------------------
> Doug Reynaud wrote:
>>are there any agency msar and or mounted patrols that allow the use of
>>rider owned mounts.

If you are a career person who gets paid to patrol or be a peace officer, or
a responder the rules are entirely different than for volunteers.  Some are
the same in that child labor laws limit the amount of time a member under 18
can be in the field on a per shift basis, per day basis, per week, and
whether school is in session or not.  They also limit what a minor can do.

If you are paid by a jurisdiction to patrol that jurisdiction you must be
paid for all hours spent patrolling, getting ready to patrol, and getting
trained to patrol, both initial and continuing education.  The federal law
requires time and half after 8 hours per day, and 40 hours per week unless a
collective bargaining agreement states otherwise or certain exceptions such
as federal firefighters who sleep in during a 24 hour shift.  Thus we see 3
12's as a shift pattern, mixed 10 and 14 shifts, 8 hours with or without
rotation, and so forth.  Special skills or risks can be rewarded as
well--flight pay, SWAT pay, motorcycle pay, and so forth can be bargained
for.

The primary rule is that if you work you get paid. You cannot volunteer your
time in the same jurisdiction that pays you for the same service.  You
cannot be a paid peace officer during the day and a volunteer Town Watch
patrol person at night in the same town.

Doug's problem is how to pay for get ready time for mounted officers who do
not go to a police stable and clock in at the start of a shift so they get
paid for grooming and tacking.  Further, if these horses are not kept in a
police barn when does the clock start? Morning feed, loading on a trailer
for transport to a patrol beat, or some other time.  Uniforms, tack and
special equipment can be covered as expenses or uniform allowance items but
work time must be defined, agreed to by the union and the jurisdiction, and
rigidly adhered to. For purposes of recall and disability insurance many
career fire departments prohibit their employees from working for another
fire or EMS organization, public or private without written permission.
This is because of occupational exposures to toxins and pathogens that
cannot be traced back to where the exposure occurred.  The claim is filed
with the agency with the best disability coverage.  What happens in
jurisdictions that let the officer take his patrol car home? The benefit of
the car is often considered payment for any off duty activities but how do
you quantify a horse the department doesn't own?

You have to be very careful when dealing with paid personnel, even if you
are not their regular employer.  We used to use state employees for search
managers a lot.  Then we found out that the state only sent park managers
out because they were supervisors with budget authority and therefore exempt
from overtime.  This is always a problem with volunteers and cops because
cops are generally paid and paid overtime while the volunteers are lucky to
get fed.

Irv Lichtenstein

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