Skip to Content.
Sympa Menu

cc-jo - Re: [CC-Jordan] Creative Commons Corporation منظمة المشاع الابداعي

cc-jo AT lists.ibiblio.org

Subject: CC Jordan

List archive

Chronological Thread  
  • From: Ahmad Gharbeia <gharbeia AT gmail.com>
  • To: ramiolwan AT yahoo.com
  • Cc: cc-jo AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [CC-Jordan] Creative Commons Corporation منظمة المشاع الابداعي
  • Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:10:06 +0200

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA384

Hello Stephanie, Amr and Rami,

I like to present the rationale and perception of the non-lawyer in the
discussions I have here. In addition to the input by Amr and Rami
regarding مشاع vs عموميات as a translation of "commons" I'd like to add
that the first impression of most Arabic-speaking people who comment on
the first point you commented on do have a reservation very similar to
yours.

It seems to me that these reservations originate in a discrepancy in how
the word "masha'" is being used between *modern* common usage and in
legal usage. I'll elaborate below on why I stress 'modern common usage'

Unlike what most commentators believe, in Arabic legal usage the word
مشاع "masha'" does not mean "public domain". The latter is ملك عام as
attested in almost all IP legislations (I haven't seen Moroccan, so
maybe Rami can advise, and by doing so provide a basis for covering
reservations from people of this side of the Arab World too).

Instead, as Rami wrote, a "masha3" is a property which is owned
collectively by a group of owners whose ownership shares is not
specified. The example I always strike here is in fact very common in
[material] property/real estate ownership contexts in Egypt - and else
where - where the owners of residential flats in a building own the land
of the building while none of them has a specified plot allotted to him
in the fashion land ownership is usually. In Arabic it is said to be
ملكية على المشاع.

Additionally, I argue that the historical significance of مشاع before it
came to being used as denoting ملك عام is very similar to "commons". It
is not an alien concept to our culture that a material property, such
pastoral land, and water sources, etc. could have a known owner who
exerts ownership rights on it (for example inherits it, sells it) but
grant other members of their communities access to them.

As Amr wrote
[https://lists.ibiblio.org/sympa/arc/cc-jo/20090225/000033.html], the
resemblance between the material property being owned collectively (على
المشاع) and an intellectual property which creation is also a collective
process with various people having contributions that is sometimes
impossible to elaborate or distinguish, is significant.

Regarding the second and third points in your comment, I guess this and
similar notes were made by me and other commenters and we are still to
see them reflected in a newer draft that advances the discussions here
further.

Sincerely,
Ahmad Gharbeia

PS: list moderator, can we have the list's archive divided by month
instead of by week? That was it is easier to see how conversations are
threaded on the archive page on the web. We don't have much traffic anyway.


رسالة Rami Olwan في 26/02/09 07:31:
> Hi Stephanie Safi,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your comments. Although your comments are merely
> linguistic, and I was hoping to some kind of legal input; I still think
> they are useful at least to take the discussion further. This is an
> important factor in launching a successful CC Jordan project. I hereby
> reply to your comments as follows:
>
>
>
> *1) The translation of Commons to “mashaa”*
>
>
>
> This has been a controversial matter from the beginning. Most of the
> comments that we have received so far are not happy with the translation
> and there were several suggestions. They are mainly two for the
> translation of the word “Commons” to Arabic. One suggestion is to use
> the word “omameyat” and the other is to use the word “mashaa”. The first
> is not a legal word one and means stuff that is general. The second one
> “mashaa” is a legal word that is used frequently in legal writings
> especially property law. It refers in property law to the land that is
> owned by different people who are not sure what exactly each one owns. I
> have explained in an earlier post why we have used the term
> “mashaa”instead of “omameyat” from a legal standing, please read my post
> for further explanation here http://www.mail-archive.com/cc
> jo AT lists.ibiblio.org/msg00006.html
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/cc%20jo AT lists.ibiblio.org/msg00006.html>.
>
>
>
> As for your suggestion to use the word “moushtarak” instead of “mashaa”,
> I am not sure if using it will result in proper legal translation of the
> word (although the Arabic translation might be correct).
>
>
>
> Also, it will not give the needed meaning of what CC is trying to
> achieve a bundle of materials over the Internet that people could share
> and remix legally. This is the main idea behind CC when it started by
> professor Lawrence Lessig who saw the need to build a rich public domain
> that less restrictive by the “permission culture” and copyright laws. CC
> Arab community has agreed in the workshop we have participated recently
> in Alexandria, Egypt to use “mashaa”, but we are happy to discuss the
> matter further.
>
>
>
> *2) The use of “you” in Arabic legal documents*
>
>
>
> Your comment is not totally clear, but what I understand that you want
> us to constantly use “licensee” instead of “you”. We have tried from the
> beginning to achieve that and I have explained to CC why we need to
> replace “you” with “licensee”. The main reason for that is because it
> does not give the proper legal meaning and the word “you” is never used
> when drafting Arabic legal documents. If we missed replacing the word
> ‘you’ with “licensee” in one occasion or another, this is a typo and
> common sense requires from us to be constant throughout the
> translation. We will make sure this happens. Please explain further if
> this is not the case.
>
>
>
> *3) The translation of “Uniform Resource Locater”*
>
>
>
> I do not think it is a good idea to leave the concept of “URL” as it is
> in English. This is not useful since users of the license might not be
> familiar with the techno- terminology, and leaving it will not give the
> proper meaning of Internet address. This could be easily translated to
> Arabic.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps. I am happy to explain any of the above further. Thank
> you for your interest in CC Jordan!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Rami Olwan
>
>
>
> --- On *Wed, 2/25/09, Stephanie Raye Safi /<stephanie.safi AT nklc.ae>/* wrote:
>
> From: Stephanie Raye Safi <stephanie.safi AT nklc.ae>
> Subject: [CC-Jordan] Creative Commons Corporation منظمة المشاع الابداعي
> To: cc-jo AT lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2009, 11:37 AM
>
> “Creative Commons Corporation” and “Uniform Resource Identifier” do
> not have their exact translation and meaning in the Arabic version,
> therefore, I proposed to keep translation and add the
> transliteration of the words between brackets.
>
>
>
> However, concerning the name translation of “Creative Commons”
> ابداعي مشاع, we do not agree that مشاع is the right word to
> translate “commons”:
>
>
>
> In fact, (1) the use of the word is as a noun not as an adjective.
>
>
>
> (2) The term common in Arabic have a meaning of مشترك while the word
> مشاع imply commonalty.
>
>
>
> The problem with using مشاع is that the word is linked to land and
> real estate. Whereas the word مشترك is a much more general term in
> terms of its usage.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, the word مشترك is less connected to real estate and
> property and therefore is less likely to cause confusion among the
> average Arabic user/reader.
>
>
>
> (3)Finally as we are about to introduce a new legal concept to the
> Arab market it is advisable to choose as much possible a neutral
> term such as مشترك.
>
>
>
> Therefore, we propose to translate “Creative Commons Corporation” as
> منظمة الابداع المشترك.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Stephanie Safi,
>
> Associate
>
> * *
>
> *Khasawneh & Associates *
>
> Legal Consultants
>
> PO Box 74980, Al Moosa Tower 1,
>
> Sheikh Zayed Road
>
> Dubai, United Arab Emirates
> Telephone: +971 (0) 4332 6550
> Mobile: +971 (0) 556802689
>
> Fax: +971 (0) 4332 6433
>
> Website www.nklc.ae
>
> Email: stephanie.safi AT nklc.ae <mailto:nasserak AT nklc.ae>
>
> / /
>
>
>
> part of kslg.jpg
>
> Amman/Baghdad/Dubai
>
> www.kslg.net <http://www.kslg.net/>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEAREJAAYFAkmoSJ0ACgkQb0KnRfzgOQUGTQCeLbA1H/7WUDzg/1oJuVM+w+Aj
4fcAnRdDAbJlg9KfgT6AbbV6l+nfMxEj
=kYZn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




Archive powered by MHonArc 2.6.24.

Top of Page