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  • From: davedonnelly1 <davedonnelly1 AT juno.com>
  • To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Cc: TedBro AT aol.com
  • Subject: [b-hebrew] Vowel Substitution
  • Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:13:30 -0500

Hi Ted,

I'm going over an old comment that you wrote to James.

Ted, you wrote to James.:

"James:

It seems we are talking past each other.
Are you suggesting that the text
as it stands represents the original pronunciation of YHWH?
If so, how can we explain the fact that the waw in YHWH is sometimes
pointed with hireq
and sometimes with qamatz?
Both can't be the original, can they?
Isn't this very strong evidence that we are dealing with the vowels of
elohim (hireq)
and adonai (qamatz) superimposed on the tetragram?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

Ted, if we are dealing with the vowels of elohim (hireq)
and adonai (qamatz) superimposed on the tetragram,
why don't we also find the vowels of elohiym (Hatef segol)
and the vowels of adonai (Hatef Patah) also superimposed on the
Tetragrammaton?

Certainly there is no Hebrew Grammar Rule that prevented the Masoretes
from placing a compound shewa under the yod in YHVH. As noted in
Gesenius's discussion on Hebrew word #3068, Gesenius even showed what
YHVH would have looked like, if the Masoretes had actually placed the
precise same vowels as are found in Adonai into YHVH.

Obviously the Masoretes placed the precise same vowels as are found in
Elohiym into YHVH,
but what prevented them from honoring the rules of "Qere Perpetuum"
by placing the precise same vowels as are found in Adonai into YHVH.

The Jewish Encyclopedia proposes a reason,
but there seems to be no consensus among Scholar sources as to precisely
why this issue exists.

MAYBE THERE ARE NO CLEARLY ESTABLISHED WRITTEN RULES FOR QERE PERPETUUM!


Dave Donnelly
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>From TedBro AT aol.com Thu Dec 31 10:19:10 2009
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Dave:

The statement below is simply incorrect.

There are admittedly a few isolated cases where the yod of YHWH is pointed
with compound shva (seghol hateph). But in 99% of qere elohim cases, the
Massoretes give the yod a simple shva.

This is precisely the same supposed lack of precision that exists with qere
adonai. Why is the one significant and the other not? To be consistent
wouldn't we have to say that the Yehowih and Yehowah both represent real
ancient pronunciations of YHWH since neither represents the exact vowels of
the
supposed qere? Or conversely that both represent the vowels of the qere
placed on the tetragram?

Peace,
Ted Brownstein




In a message dated 12/31/2009 9:14:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davedonnelly1 AT juno.com writes:

Obviously the Masoretes placed the precise same vowels as are found in
Elohiym into YHVH,






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