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  • From: Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>
  • To: Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Grammer Question: Base or Suffix?
  • Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:47:41 -0500

Pere Porta wrote:

(JS) I know that the lemma in ec3:18,11 is <H"M> (which was listed
in my question).

(PP) No, you did not list <H"M>. You listed <H"N> and <HEM>, but not <H"M>
(JS) Actually I did. Here's a quote from my original post:
*****************************
I will start out with two questions:

My first question is with the third one listed <HEM>:
<HEM> as a Base:
ec3:18,11 | $:/HEM | P $E@Pr / B H"M@pi3mp
****************************************************

If you are talking about the first grouping of 9 that I had listed, the first one is <H"N>, but that group isn't involved in my question about <HEM>. Anyway, doesn't matter, as we are on the same page now. :)


(JS) My question is, when looking at the word, what are the "red
flags" telling you that the <HEM> ending on this word is not a 3mp
suffix based on the <HM> lemma, but rather an independent 3mp
pronoun based on the <H"M> lemma?

(PP) The "red flags" are:

1. Whenever H"M or HEM comes alone (namely without a prefix as in Ex 5:7,10)
2. And/or when HEM comes with a conjunction or a preposition put infront of it as a prefix (as in Ec 3:18,11 or in Gn 41:56,12) ----------> then it is an independent 3mp pronoun.
Now, I think that when <HEM> has a conjunction or a preposition attached infront of them we should better say that here HEM is an independent 3mp pronoun with a prefix rather than saying it is a suffix that has been attached to the preposition. Do you understand the difference?
(JS) <HEM> never comes alone. According to BibleWorks the <HEM> (actually its <FHEM> according to WLC) is a 3mp suffix.
Yes, I understand the difference, and the point yuo are making. So the question is, is this an error on WTS/BW part, or are they right?


(JS) Yes, I am aware that with <HOWN> and <NF)> the issue is that
with one the word is Aramaic, and the other is Hebrew. But I still
mention it for both the sake of completeness, and also to ask when
you encounter those words, beside just knowing "this part of
Daniel is in Aramaic" what other "red flags" are there. When just
looking those words, is there any way to detect that they are
Aramaic or Hebrew, and not the other.

(PP) Unfortunately I do not know Aramaic. So I'm afraid I cannot really give an answer to this question. But when looking at a given verse (in Daniel or Ezra) if I see some words like DY (which is NOT Hebrew) or some words ending in aleph where you would expect a H (as in MLK) for MLKH, queen): then it is surely Aramaic and not Hebrew.
Now, regarding your HOWN and your HIY.
HOWN in Ezk 27:12.5 is an autonomous noun that means "wealth" and it has nothing to do with the suffix in Dan 2:44,1 (which is Aramaic).
The same for HIY: in Ezk 2:10,12 it is an autonomous noun that means "wailing" and has nothing to do with the final HIY in Psa 116:12,5 (you chose here a very special -odd- word, John!), where it means "his" (a quite rare form!)
(JS) Yep, I like to chose the odd ones. lol
So how does one detect that in ek2:10,21 its a noun and that in ps116:12,5 its a suffix - as these are the only two places in the Hebrew where this occurs? I guess the only way you would know is that in the first there's a conjunctive prefix, and the other is on a noun.
And this is because a suffix is never connected to a lone conjunctive prefix.

Do you feel I'm right?
Pere Porta
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain



Pere Porta wrote:
Dear John,
Concerning your first question (Ec 3:18.11...).
The real base form is not HEM but H"M (Ex 5:7.10) (with tsere):
base form.
But whenever this H"M becomes suffix, then the tsere turns to
segol, HEM. Look here: www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html
<http://www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html> and the four that
follow it and/or www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html
<http://www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html> and the following.
What, then, in Ec 3:18 (whre it is a base)?
When a base word with tsere is followed by maqaf (= hyphen), then
the tsere turns to segol: look at paragraph B, item 2 in
www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html
<http://www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html>.
Remark: In HOWN and NF) you're mixing Hebrew and Aramaic: are you
aware thereof? To my sense this is not legitimate.
If you agree, I'm ready to give an answer to your second question.
Pere Porta
Barcelona, Catalonia Spain

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com
<mailto:Brak AT neo.rr.com>> wrote:

There are a few "word parts" that ares ambiguous (at least at
first
look) as too if the part is a base or a suffix.
To define my terms here is an example:
Word: <WI/YR"$W./KF>
This is made up of three "word parts":
Prefix: <WI>
Base: <YR"$W.>
Suffix <KF>


There are 9 word parts that can go be either a base or a
suffix, and I
am trying to figure the logic behind when it is one or the other:
<H"N>
B: gn3:22,4 (Pi) [/in 86 other places/] / da2:5,9 (Pc_D) [/in
15 other
places/]
S: ek16:47,10 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]

<H"N.FH>
B: 2s4:6,1 (pi3fp) [/in 47 other places/] / gn15:16,4 (Pd)
[/in 45 other
places/]
S: is34:16,7 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]

<HEM>
B: ec3:18,11 (pi3mp) [/only //occurrence/]
S: gn2:25,2 (S3mp) [/in 1923 other places/] / ex30:12,7
(S3mpx) [/in 119
other places/]

<HEN>
B: nu23:9,7 (Pi) [/in 11 other places/]
S: gn19:33,3 (S3fp) [/in 113 other places/] / 2k19:26,1
(S3fpx) [/in 3
other places/]

<HF)>
B: da3:25,3 (Pi) [/only occurrence/]
S: ek41:15,11 (S3fs) [/only occurrence/]

<HIY>
B: ek2:10,12 (ncmsa) [/only //occurrence/]
S: ps116:12,5 (S3ms) [/in 64 other places/] / da4:20,12
(S3msx) [/in 3
other places/]

<HOWN>
B: ek27:12,5 (ncmsa) [/in 19 other places/] / ek27:27,1
(ncmsc) [/in 4
other places/]
S: da2:44,1 (S3mp) [/in 13 other places/]

<NF)>
B: gn12:11,11 (Pi) [/in 331 other places/] / ex12:9,4 (amsa)
[/only
//occurrence/]
S: er4:12,10 (S1cp) [/in 2 other places/] / er5:11,3 (S1cpx)
[/only
//occurrence/]

<NIY>
B: ek27:32,3 (ncmsc) [/only //occurrence/]
S: gn44:15,16 (S1cs) [/in 16 other places/] / gn20:11,11
(S1csx) [/in
213 other places/]



I will start out with two questions:

My first question is with the third one listed <HEM>:
<HEM> as a Base:
ec3:18,11 | $:/HEM | P $E@Pr / B
H"M@pi3mp

<HEM> as a Suffix:
gn3:7,3 | $:N"Y/HEM | B $:NAYIM@ucmdc
/ S HM@S3mp
gn6:13,13 | MI/P.:N"Y/HEM | P MIN@Pp_S / B
P.FNEH@ncmpc / S HM@S3mp
gn8:19,11 | L:/MI$:P.:XO^T"Y/HEM | P L:@Pp_S / B
MI$:P.FXFH@ncfpc / S HM@S3mp

ec3:18,11 is the only time the word part <HEM> is a base, as
pi3mp -
every other 2044 places its a suffix as S3mp.
Can anyone explain why?



My second question is with the second one listed <H"N.FH>:
<H"N.FH> as a Base:
lv4:2,18 <M"/H"^N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / B
H"N.FH@pi3fp
je5:6,15 <M"/H"^N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / B
H"N.FH@pi3fp
ps34:21,5 <M"/H"^N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / B
H"N.FH@pi3fp
2s4:6,1 | W:/H"N.FH | P W:@Pc_S / B
H"N.FH@pi3fp

<H"N.FH> as a Suffix:
is34:16,7 <M"/H"N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / S HNH@S3fp
ek16:51,9 <M"/H"N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / S HNH@S3fp
1c21:10,16 <M"/H"N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / S HNH@S3fp

The reason I have 2s4:6,1 listed is because it is in the base
position,
but without an accent.
So how does one determine which it is?



B"H
John Steven
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-- Pere Porta
"Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar
apothnéskomen" (1Cor 15:32)




--
Pere Porta
"Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen" (1Cor 15:32)




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