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  • From: Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com>
  • To: Pere Porta <pporta7 AT gmail.com>
  • Cc: Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Grammer Question: Base or Suffix?
  • Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:00:22 -0500

Pere,
Thank you so much for responding. :)

I know that the lemma in ec3:18,11 is <H"M> (which was listed in my question).
My question is, when looking at the word, what are the "red flags" telling you that the <HEM> ending on this word is not a 3mp suffix based on the <HM> lemma, but rather an independent 3mp pronoun based on the <H"M> lemma?

Yes, I am aware that with <HOWN> and <NF)> the issue is that with one the word is Aramaic, and the other is Hebrew. But I still mention it for both the sake of completeness, and also to ask when you encounter those words, beside just knowing "this part of Daniel is in Aramaic" what other "red flags" are there. When just looking those words, is there any way to detect that they are Aramaic or Hebrew, and not the other.

Thanks in advance.

B"H
John Steven


Pere Porta wrote:
Dear John,
Concerning your first question (Ec 3:18.11...).
The real base form is not HEM but H"M (Ex 5:7.10) (with tsere): base form.
But whenever this H"M becomes suffix, then the tsere turns to segol, HEM. Look here: www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html <http://www.oham.net/out/S-d/S-d0154.html> and the four that follow it and/or www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html <http://www.oham.net/out/S-t/S-t0240.html> and the following.
What, then, in Ec 3:18 (whre it is a base)?
When a base word with tsere is followed by maqaf (= hyphen), then the tsere turns to segol: look at paragraph B, item 2 in www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html <http://www.oham.net/out/N-d/N-d07.html>.
Remark: In HOWN and NF) you're mixing Hebrew and Aramaic: are you aware thereof? To my sense this is not legitimate.
If you agree, I'm ready to give an answer to your second question.
Pere Porta
Barcelona, Catalonia Spain

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Brak <Brak AT neo.rr.com <mailto:Brak AT neo.rr.com>> wrote:

There are a few "word parts" that ares ambiguous (at least at first
look) as too if the part is a base or a suffix.
To define my terms here is an example:
Word: <WI/YR"$W./KF>
This is made up of three "word parts":
Prefix: <WI>
Base: <YR"$W.>
Suffix <KF>


There are 9 word parts that can go be either a base or a suffix, and I
am trying to figure the logic behind when it is one or the other:
<H"N>
B: gn3:22,4 (Pi) [/in 86 other places/] / da2:5,9 (Pc_D) [/in 15 other
places/]
S: ek16:47,10 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]

<H"N.FH>
B: 2s4:6,1 (pi3fp) [/in 47 other places/] / gn15:16,4 (Pd) [/in 45
other
places/]
S: is34:16,7 (S3fp) [/in 2 other places/]

<HEM>
B: ec3:18,11 (pi3mp) [/only //occurrence/]
S: gn2:25,2 (S3mp) [/in 1923 other places/] / ex30:12,7 (S3mpx)
[/in 119
other places/]

<HEN>
B: nu23:9,7 (Pi) [/in 11 other places/]
S: gn19:33,3 (S3fp) [/in 113 other places/] / 2k19:26,1 (S3fpx) [/in 3
other places/]

<HF)>
B: da3:25,3 (Pi) [/only occurrence/]
S: ek41:15,11 (S3fs) [/only occurrence/]

<HIY>
B: ek2:10,12 (ncmsa) [/only //occurrence/]
S: ps116:12,5 (S3ms) [/in 64 other places/] / da4:20,12 (S3msx) [/in 3
other places/]

<HOWN>
B: ek27:12,5 (ncmsa) [/in 19 other places/] / ek27:27,1 (ncmsc) [/in 4
other places/]
S: da2:44,1 (S3mp) [/in 13 other places/]

<NF)>
B: gn12:11,11 (Pi) [/in 331 other places/] / ex12:9,4 (amsa) [/only
//occurrence/]
S: er4:12,10 (S1cp) [/in 2 other places/] / er5:11,3 (S1cpx) [/only
//occurrence/]

<NIY>
B: ek27:32,3 (ncmsc) [/only //occurrence/]
S: gn44:15,16 (S1cs) [/in 16 other places/] / gn20:11,11 (S1csx) [/in
213 other places/]



I will start out with two questions:

My first question is with the third one listed <HEM>:
<HEM> as a Base:
ec3:18,11 | $:/HEM | P $E@Pr / B H"M@pi3mp

<HEM> as a Suffix:
gn3:7,3 | $:N"Y/HEM | B $:NAYIM@ucmdc / S
HM@S3mp
gn6:13,13 | MI/P.:N"Y/HEM | P MIN@Pp_S / B
P.FNEH@ncmpc / S HM@S3mp
gn8:19,11 | L:/MI$:P.:XO^T"Y/HEM | P L:@Pp_S / B
MI$:P.FXFH@ncfpc / S HM@S3mp

ec3:18,11 is the only time the word part <HEM> is a base, as pi3mp -
every other 2044 places its a suffix as S3mp.
Can anyone explain why?



My second question is with the second one listed <H"N.FH>:
<H"N.FH> as a Base:
lv4:2,18 <M"/H"^N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / B H"N.FH@pi3fp
je5:6,15 <M"/H"^N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / B H"N.FH@pi3fp
ps34:21,5 <M"/H"^N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / B H"N.FH@pi3fp
2s4:6,1 | W:/H"N.FH | P W:@Pc_S / B
H"N.FH@pi3fp

<H"N.FH> as a Suffix:
is34:16,7 <M"/H"N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / S HNH@S3fp
ek16:51,9 <M"/H"N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / S HNH@S3fp
1c21:10,16 <M"/H"N.FH> | P MIN@Pp_S / S HNH@S3fp

The reason I have 2s4:6,1 listed is because it is in the base
position,
but without an accent.
So how does one determine which it is?



B"H
John Steven
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--
Pere Porta
"Ei nekrói ouk eguéirontai, fágomen kai píomen áurion gar apothnéskomen" (1Cor 15:32)




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