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  • From: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • To: <yodan AT yodanco.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?
  • Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:18:05 -0500

Rivka,

I don't care what "others" say. I think I have encountered this opinion somewhere but I can not recall now exactly where. Possibly in some treatise of rabbinical provenance. You may try the carefully written DIKDUKEI SHAY by Shmuel Yonatan Mandelbaum or DIKDUKEI ELIYAHU by Xayim Hillel Krzepicqi, expounding on the grammar notes of the GAON of Vilna.
Here are the names in Hebrew:

דקדוקי שי, שמואל יונתן מנדלבאום
דקדוקי אליהו, חיים הלל קרזעפיצקי

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Feb 24, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Yodan wrote:

I haven’t heard this view before.

Is this an view shared by others? Is it published (if so – where)?

Rivka Sherman-Gold

*********************************
From: Isaac Fried [mailto:if AT math.bu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:39 AM
To: yodan AT yodanco.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?

Rivka,

I categorically deny the existence in Hebrew of an actual schwa NA (. I think that people who "move" this schwa, replacing it by a (short) E, or what not, are misguided by the terminology, where NA ( meant originally, methinks, "leaning forward" or opening a syllable.

Isaac Fried, Boston University
On Feb 24, 2009, at 12:54 AM, Yodan wrote:


I noticed, but the question is – do you not consider the Shva under Beit to be a vowel? It’s a Shva Na, so it is a vowel, even though a short one, so – back to my question – what’s in your view the difference between BEIT in Diber and in Dibra?

Rivka Sherman-Gold

*********************************
From: Isaac Fried [mailto:if AT math.bu.edu]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 7:14 PM
To: yodan AT yodanco.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org Hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?

Notice what I have said before about the natural doubling of a consonant between two vowels.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Feb 23, 2009, at 9:56 PM, Yodan wrote:



Isaac,

You say "notice that no doubling may occur in DIBRAH". It seems that you are contrasting this with DIBBER. But it's not clear:

Are you saying that neither Diber nor Dibra had ever had doubling OR are you saying that while Diber may have had doubling (even though you don’t think so), it’s obvious that Dibra may not have doubling.

In short, is there, in your view, a difference between Diber and Dibra with respect to the dagesh in Beit? If so, what's the difference?

(Apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying.)

Rivka Sherman-Gold



-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces@lists..ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew- bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Isaac Fried
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 5:26 PM
To: Jason Hare
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Any meaning to the Dagesh?

Jason,

Arab diction has its peculiarities which are of no concern to Hebrew.
There is a universally natural doubling of a consonant located
between two vowels, for instance DIBBER, 'he spoke', but this has
nothing to do with the dagesh in the B. There is no indication that
an exaggerated, over-natural, doubling, say DIB---BER, was ever
practiced in Hebrew.
I think that the purpose of the dagesh in B of DBR is only to
indicate the lack of the preceding vowel I.
Notice that no doubling may occur in DIBRAH, 'she spoke'.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Feb 23, 2009, at 1:04 PM, Jason Hare wrote:

> I'll bite. If shadda doesn't represent the doubling of a consonant,
> what
> does it represent? The same question with the dagesh chazak?
>
> They are indeed the same thing, as Uri stated.
>
> Jason Hare
> Rehovot, Israel
>
> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu> wrote:
>
>> The Arabic Shadda is not the Hebrew dagesh XAZAQ.
>>
>> Isaac Fried
> _______________________________________________
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

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