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  • From: Ron Snider <sarasotapt AT comcast.net>
  • To: Isaac Fried <if AT math.bu.edu>
  • Cc: B-Hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Qohelet chapter 12
  • Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:46:07 -0500

I would assume that the NOW is simply the translators take on the VAV at the beginning of the verse. I agree with you that BARA' is normally used in the singular. However, your possibility (however plausible) would need some more definitive proof IMHO. I still do not see any justification for bringing in ancestors here, when the clear context concerns the reality of youth and the recognition that God will judge all actions. Further, I see no usage of it in the Qal to refer to human creators.

Ron Snider

Isaac Fried wrote:

Ron,


I see that the KJV translates the first part of Ecclesiastes 12:1 as

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth"

First I notice that the translator sneaks in the word "now" not found in the Hebrew text. Then I see that he translates BOR)-EY-KA as "thy Creator" rather than "thy Creators", which is an outright falsification of the Hebrew text, unless he had before him a different version. The HB grandly opens with BRE)$IT BARA) ELOHIM, with BARA) in the singular not BAR)U in the plural.

No wonder Pere is puzzled by this business of remembering the Creator(s).

I do not think I need to prove anything; all I do is just raise a plausible [to me] possibility, which you may or may not accept.
Otherwise, the BARE) of Ezekiel 21:24 is possibly just 'erect, produce'. Recall ,ZAKOR, also the BR) of Joshua 17:15, and the root of BARI), 'well formed', of Judges 3:17.


Isaac Fried, Boston University


On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Ron Snider wrote:



I am not in the habit of looking at foreign translations of the HB. In my Qoren edition of the TN"K the word BOR)-EY-KA is written with a yod [so also in the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia] and I see it as plural. Indeed, "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth" does not make as much sense as "Keep in mind your forebears [some old, some dead] in the days of your youth".
I would relate this BR) to the BAR, 'son, child', of Proverbs 31:2


I do agree that the participle is plural, other than than I disagree completely with the rest of your response. First, the Qal stem is only used of the creative activity of God in the OT. Second, the plural may well be plural since Elohiym is plural. Third, the term is never used in the Qal of human creations, which rules out the idea of forebears. Fourth, immediate context from the previous verses suggests that this is advice to a young person with respect to how he lives his life and the fact that God will ultimately judge every action. Fifth, remembering your forbears has nothing to do with whether or not one grows old and enjoys life, Solomon has already stated repeatedly in this book that real life comes from God. Eccles. 2:25-26, 5:18-20, 7:14, 9:1,9

Lastly, while you may not feel the need to consult other translations, when you digress dramatically from the orthodox understanding of a verse, the burden of proof is on you to document your assertions. One cannot merely say that the word means something and expect others to simply accept it without proof. Since this term only appears in the Qal partciple plural one time, proof is probably not available.

Respectfully,

Ron Snider,
Pastor-teacher

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