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  • From: Yigal Levin <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>
  • To: b-hebrew <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel
  • Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2006 14:39:59 +0200

Dear Harold,

The so-called "Jewish" counting of the years since creation was calculated by a group of rabbis sometime during the early Middle Ages, and is recorded in "Seder Olam Rabba". As I'm sure you know, such a count is not referenced either in the Bible or in post-biblical literature, including the Talmud. Jews were perfectly content to use whatever "civil" year-count was used by the country they were living in: during the Israelite monarchy it was the reigning king. The two notable exceptions are 1 Kings 6:4, in which the building of the Temple is dated to the Exodus, and several places in Jeremiah, Daniel etc., in which years of the Exile are counted. My guess was that as long as the "civil" calendar had no religious significance, it did not bother the Jews, but after Christians started counting "years of our lord" (Anno Dominii) and Muslims by the Hegira, Jews felt that they needed their own "absolute" calendar, which would be MORE absolute than the gentiles', and so they "back-calculated" when creation was supposed to have occurred. As long as they were using biblical material as a source they were okay, but as soon as they got to the early Second Temple period they lost count - there were just too many kings, who were not recorded in Jewish sources. For example, Cambyses, son of Cyrus the Great. Also, they were not aware that there had been 3 kings named Darius and 3 named Artaxerxes. And so the whole Persian Period was "condensed" into just one generation, instead of over 200 years.

So there is no way that the dates Shoshanna has been citing can match up with the dates in any history book that you are ever going to read.

Yigal Levin

----- Original Message ----- From: "Harold Holmyard" <hholmyard AT ont.com>
To: <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Daniel


Dear Shoshanna,

From my sources (Artscroll, Judaica Press, Rashi, etc.)

The beginning of Achashverosh's reign was 3393.

Achashverosh was the successor to Cyrus, toward the end of the 70
years of the Babylonian Exile (4 Century BCE) - Rashi.





HH: The Babylonian Captivity started in 587 B.C, so it did not end in
the 4th century BCE. That is too late.


Ibn Ezra also says that Achashverosh reigned after Cyrus during the
time of the Second Temple, but the Temple was still not built during
his reign, as is related in the book of Ezra (4:6). Ibn Ezra
identifies Achashverosh with Artaxerxes, during whose reign the
construction of the Temple was suspended. This follows the view of
the Sages, that this Achashverosh was the second monarch over the
united Persian Empire (ie; from the time that Persia united with
Media, which is from the death of Darius the Mede, who also reigned
over the Babylonian Empire). According to them, the first king was
Cyrus, who sanctioned the rebuilding of the Second Temple, and he was
succeeded by this Achashverosh, who suspended its construction.

Ibn Ezra also conjectures that there was another Achashverosh among
the ancient kings of Persia who also reigned over Persia and Media.
However, he did not reign over other countries as did Achashverosh
II, the main character of the Book of Esther. Therefore Scripture
states: He was the Achashverosh who reigned, etc., one hundred
twenty-seven provinces.

The dates I have are from the creation of the world, year 1. We are
now in the year 5766, so you can subtract.





HH: Subtracting 3393 from 5766 gives a difference of 2373 years ago,
which is only 367 B.C. Unless I counted wrong, that seems too late.
Here's part of a Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahasuerus

Ahasuerus (Hebrew אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ, Standard Hebrew Aḥašveroš, Tiberian Hebrew
ʾĂḫašwērôš, commonly transliterated Achashverosh) is a name used several
times in the Hebrew Bible and related legends and apocrypha. The name is
generally thought to be equivalent to Xerxes, both being derived from
the original Persian Khashayar-sha.
▪ The name of the king of Persia in the Book of Esther[1]. He is
generally identified with Xerxes I[2] of Persia although several
alternative identifications have been proposed. The Greek version of the
Book of Esther refers to him as Artaxerxes and Josephus relates that
this was the name by which he was known to the Greeks[3]. Similarly the
Midrash of Esther Rabba, I, 3 identifies him as Artaxerxes.

HH: Here's something on Xerxes I:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I_of_Persia

Xerxes I (Persian: خشایارشاه, 'Khashâyâr Shâh'), was a Persian Emperor
(Shahanshah) (reigned 485–465 BC) of the Achaemenid dynasty. "Xerxēs" is
the Greek transliteration of the Persian throne name Khashayarsha or
Khashayar-shah, meaning "King of heroes". In the Book of Ezra and in
Book of Esther, the Persian king Axašweroš (אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ) (Ahasuerus)
probably corresponds to Xerxes I.

Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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