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  • From: "Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk>
  • To: "Stephen" <stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com>
  • Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
  • Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 02:46:55 +0100


Hello Stephen,

how are you today?

You'll be glad to know that I have felt regrets for being born British.
This is why I moved away from Britain and visited other cultures and
languages in an attempt to put off my Britishness and become without
nationality. It was a very difficult task and I haven't fully succeeded
yet and rather than becoming a person without nationality I've rather
become a person with a confused nationality and am often witnessed
making proud statements such as 'In Italy we ...' or 'In Spain...' as
if we do it better over there. This usually provokes bewildered looks
from my fellow brits who look at me as if to say 'But you're British
moron!'.
I'm truly sorry for all that my ancestors have done in the way of raping
and plundering other countries and I hope that they will not repeat this
error. I also hope that we will begin to make foreign language study a
higher priority as we are highly renowned for our linguistic ignorance
in other european countries.
You're right that I should read the Massorah myself before formulating
an opinion. I'll put it on my to do list, which currently has approximately
1,000,000 other things before it but hey with everlasting life(god willing)
ahead I'm sure I'll find the time.
Please, feel free to continue to point out to me my wickedness and badness
and I will make a concerted effort to make the necessary changes to gain
your approval. Please appreciate, that being a pagan Briton that has suffered
a lifetime of being brainwashed into believing that I am part of a master race
this may take some time and patience but with your perseverance and constant
reminders of my British wickedness we will no doubt make some sort of
progress
in the near future. I've thought of a slogan for our campaign:

'Down with the Queen and the fascist regime!!!'

I figured that if we attach it to a funky beat and do a massive spam wave to
every email address of potential britons we may make some headway and hey!
Who
knows? Maybe one day some of the British may be able to become humble
servants
of Yahweh like yourself.
I know! The British are only fit for destruction but you never know. The
ninivites
repented and Yah forgave them and so maybe there is some hope in the mission
of
your anti-britain form of 'Christiany'

'Those who do fine works come to the light, in order that their works may be
made manifest.'

My interpretation of these words are 'If you are doing something in secret,
it
is usually because you are ashamed of it and therefore deep down inside you
know that it is wrong'.

Once again, thank you for the enlightening experience you have given me.
Please
continue to send you proselytic emails. They are most endearing. Especially
the
ones where you tell me how wicked all the British are and how we are all
going to
burn in the lake of fire. It's such warm and endearing words as these that
make your religious schism seem so inviting.

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen [mailto:stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 2:01 AM
To: Read, James C
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin

james,

the massorah is so deep, one must examine it oneself. the fact that you rely
on what others say, ought to show you that you eat the wrong bread.

Yahshua said, "eat My bread"..

I wonder to ask you, have you repented yet from your wicked british
mentality, and your overall wickedness?

eating the wrong bread, is idol worship. this is what makes you so evil..

I hope you can see your evil ness. I really do.

please repent...

stephen the humble messenger for Yahweh

"Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk> wrote:
Erm, I haven't personally read the massorah but from all those that
have read it or portions of it I gather that the hebrew it contains
is more than blatantly evidently much more modern in style and word
usage.

On the matter of the number of phonemes, while I haven't studied the
matter deep enough to formulate an opinion I do think the owness of
proof is rather on us to prove Karl wrong in this matter than vice
versa. The reason for this is clear. The unpointed text uses 22
characters. In general, when languages invent a system of recording
its sounds they try to use one character per sound. English is a great
exception to this rule but to be frank, the English writing system is
the bastardised product of countless conquests against our little
fertile (and very wet) island. And so examples of English betrayal of
this pattern would be completely irrelevant.
So, for this reason, unless we are to present convincing internal
evidence to Karl that such was not the case, he is more than justified
in believing that the consonants used in the hebrew text of the torah
represent the whole range of the consonants that its author/s were
capable of pronouncing.

There again we would do well to ask ourselves a few questions:

Where did moses learn to write hebrew?
In egypt he would have used hyroglyphs (please feel free to correct the
spelling)
Did Abraham, Isaac & Jacob write? Did they learn to write from their
Chaldean routes? Was the hebrew that Abraham spoke different to the
hebrew that Moses spoke? Archaic yhwh seems to suggest that this was so.
Did moses learn to write hebrew in Egypt as part of his royal education?
Or did he learn it from his time with Jethro and the sheep?
Was the ability to write a sign of education? Or could all hebrews write?
Did the hebrews he left Egypt with help him to learn how to write as he had
always
read and written Egyptian prior?

On the matter of sin/shin I think Karl has good reason to believe these
represented
one sound. Take for example the English 'u' (I know, I am now officially a
hypocrite).Not so long ago Peter said that English 'u' is like a russion 'a'.
Well, not for me it isn't! For me there is no difference between the
'u' of run and the 'u' of bull. For Peter, they are two different phonemes
and the 'u' of Peter's run is similar to my 'a' of ran. Estuary English goes
the whole hog and I cannot distinguish the difference between my 'ran'
and their 'run' and therefore have to rely on context to understand if they
are referring to the past or the present. While this is an extreme example
it does show how with time and dialectal differences, how one character can
come to represent two phonemes when at one time in the history of the
language
it only represented one sound.

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Come on George! Don't you think that's a bit harsh? This is a place for
producing linguistic evidence against the theories we don't support but
not a place for making personal attacks against people.

Anyway, I think you may have misrepresented Karl here. He is not trying
to impress with his ability to read unpointed hebrew. No-one can really
say they know hebrew if they are not reading unpointed text. I think Karl
is rather highlighting that the act of reading the hebrew unpointed lends
to a view that sin/shin originally represented one phoneme. Nothing more
and nothing less.

Personally, Iagree that reading unpointed text has large benfits. Because
the reader is forced to use his first instincts and make better use of the
context. I believe this is a fundamental step which makes the difference
between making hebrew a part of you and not just an academic exercise
(Yitzhak. Did you notice the improved spelling?).

For this reason, and others, my translation machine does not use the
pointed hebrew text, which could cause errors in the statistical calculations
it makes.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of George F Somsel
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 2:15 AM
To: kwrandolph AT email.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:41:29 -0500 "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph AT email.com>
writes:
> Yitzhak:
>
> You're just like Vadim, impossible!

+++++++++++++

Karl,

If anyone is like Vadim, it is YOU.

+++++++++++++

> When I read documents like the Gezar Calendar and the
> Siloam Inscription, I find writing entirely consistent with
> examples found in pre-Exile Tanakh. Give me a clear
> enough image and I have no trouble reading the text.
> Have you ever read Tanakh from cover to cover?
> <SNIP>
> What does this tradition have to do with an analysis of the
> unpointed Hebrew text? Huh??
>
> Have you ever *read* the unpointed text cover to cover?

++++++++++++
Karl,

I doubt seriously that you have read the TANAK from cover to cover. You
had to admit that you didn't know what to do with a passage from Job, and
there have been other other instances in which you seemed very much at a
loss. If I were you I would drop this bit about reading the Hebrew text
from cover to cover (and especially the point about reading the unpointed
text) since I find it totally unimpressive though I know you are
attempting to impress everyone with your prowess at Hebrew. It only
makes you a laughing-stock.
++++++++++++

> In closing, I have come to the conclusion that you don't
> know Biblical Hebrew. Oh, you may have taken a class or
> two in it, learning the paradigms presented in grammar
> textbooks, but that is a far cry from reading the text cover
> to cover. You have not analyzed even a simple, small
> book like Ruth using an unpointed text, let alone the
> whole Tanakh. All you do is parrot the beliefs of others. If
> you were handed a document in archaic Hebrew script,
> could you read it? I can. Apparently you love to argue just
> to argue, well go on without me.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.

++++++++++++

You would do well to take "a class or two" learning Hebrew. Don't try to
impress me with your supposed prowess at reading the unpointed text from
cover to cover. You're a phoney.

++++++++++++

george
gfsomsel
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Yes Stephen, thank you for that. I have and am repenting for my wicked
British ways. Do you have any practical advice to offer me? Which could
aid me in becoming more, you know? More like you? And, you know? less like
me?

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen [mailto:stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com]
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 3:00 AM
To: Read, James C
Subject: Ayin and Ghayin

james,

have you repented yet?

Yahweh is crying out against you, to repent from your wicked british ways.

you are not upity to Him, you are downity.

humble thyself oh wicked child of the devil..

and repent...and be His child... please, before it is to late...

stephen Yahweh's humble messenger

"Read, James C" <K0434995 AT kingston.ac.uk> wrote:

Come on George! Don't you think that's a bit harsh? This is a place for
producing linguistic evidence against the theories we don't support but
not a place for making personal attacks against people.

Anyway, I think you may have misrepresented Karl here. He is not trying
to impress with his ability to read unpointed hebrew. No-one can really
say they know hebrew if they are not reading unpointed text. I think Karl
is rather highlighting that the act of reading the hebrew unpointed lends
to a view that sin/shin originally represented one phoneme. Nothing more
and nothing less.

Personally, Iagree that reading unpointed text has large benfits. Because
the reader is forced to use his first instincts and make better use of the
context. I believe this is a fundamental step which makes the difference
between making hebrew a part of you and not just an academic exercise
(Yitzhak. Did you notice the improved spelling?).

For this reason, and others, my translation machine does not use the
pointed hebrew text, which could cause errors in the statistical calculations
it makes.

-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of George F Somsel
Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 2:15 AM
To: kwrandolph AT email.com
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:41:29 -0500 "Karl Randolph"
writes:
> Yitzhak:
>
> You're just like Vadim, impossible!

+++++++++++++

Karl,

If anyone is like Vadim, it is YOU.

+++++++++++++

> When I read documents like the Gezar Calendar and the
> Siloam Inscription, I find writing entirely consistent with
> examples found in pre-Exile Tanakh. Give me a clear
> enough image and I have no trouble reading the text.
> Have you ever read Tanakh from cover to cover?
>
> What does this tradition have to do with an analysis of the
> unpointed Hebrew text? Huh??
>
> Have you ever *read* the unpointed text cover to cover?

++++++++++++
Karl,

I doubt seriously that you have read the TANAK from cover to cover. You
had to admit that you didn't know what to do with a passage from Job, and
there have been other other instances in which you seemed very much at a
loss. If I were you I would drop this bit about reading the Hebrew text
from cover to cover (and especially the point about reading the unpointed
text) since I find it totally unimpressive though I know you are
attempting to impress everyone with your prowess at Hebrew. It only
makes you a laughing-stock.
++++++++++++

> In closing, I have come to the conclusion that you don't
> know Biblical Hebrew. Oh, you may have taken a class or
> two in it, learning the paradigms presented in grammar
> textbooks, but that is a far cry from reading the text cover
> to cover. You have not analyzed even a simple, small
> book like Ruth using an unpointed text, let alone the
> whole Tanakh. All you do is parrot the beliefs of others. If
> you were handed a document in archaic Hebrew script,
> could you read it? I can. Apparently you love to argue just
> to argue, well go on without me.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.

++++++++++++

You would do well to take "a class or two" learning Hebrew. Don't try to
impress me with your supposed prowess at reading the unpointed text from
cover to cover. You're a phoney.

++++++++++++

george
gfsomsel
___________
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

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@Vadim:

Sorry for jumping in so late in the convo, but it seems to me that no one is
ignoring the preposition here. What I find is that whenever you have HAYAH +
L: = Become.

If you look at any of the examples given by Michael Abernathy, I think you
will discover the pattern.

Exodus 4:3 WAY:HIY L:NAXA$ = and it became a serpent.

Joshua 7:5 WAY:HIY L:MAYIM = and the heart of the people became water.

Judges 1:33 WB"YT `A:NAT HAYW LAHEM LAMAS = and Beth Anath became forced
labor for them.

Ruth 4:13 VAYYIQAX BO`AZ ET RWT VATT:HIY-LW = and Boaz took Ruth and she
became to him.

So, I don't think anyone is ignoring anything, just noticing a pattern. That
HAYAH + L: = Become.

--
Kelton Graham
KGRAHAM0938 AT comcast.net
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Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen [mailto:stephen4yeshua AT yahoo.com]
> Sent: Fri 10/7/2005 2:01 AM
> To: Read, James C
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ayin and Ghayin
>
> james,
>
> the massorah is so deep, one must examine it oneself. the fact that you
> rely on what others say, ought to show you that you eat the wrong bread.
>
> Yahshua said, "eat My bread"..
>


Now just where in the masorah is that? Can't seem to find it.

Oh, I see. It's in the GREEK masorah.

People, this whole thread is becoming ridiculous, and certainly has nothing
to do with biblical Hebrew.

Yigal





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