Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ruth 1: 12 too old for a husband
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 14:38:21 +0100
I can wholeheartedly agree with you, I believe this is true, but I
think that when we discover later on that not only is she well known
upon her return, and that she actually does have a field in
Bethlehem, and that she also has kinsmen, one wonders if perhaps
after having been so denied her two precious sons and a husband that
her self- worth and feelings of being 'punished' by God are coming
into play in the language, (although I must add that the punishment
she feels is her perspective and not the reality as so often proposed
by Rabbis, and which they have missed all together the essence of the
story in the first chapter).
Chris Watts
Ireland
On 22 Jul 2013, at 13:26, Yigal Levin wrote:
I think that the main issue here is economic, not "self worth". Naomi
is an old woman with no means of making a living. She has no property
and can't really work, and in the patriarchal society and agrarian
economy that was ancient Israel, this means that she is pretty much
destined to be a beggar. The only way that she would have of ensuring
that she would be supported would be to "catch a man" (even as a
second wife), but at her age who would have her? So she tries to
convince her daughters-in-law to leave her to her fate. Orpah (whose
name means "back of the neck", as in "turning back", in Hebrew
להפנות עורף) goes, Ruth stays.
Yigal Levin
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Watts [mailto:dekruidnootjes AT eircom.net]
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 3:20 PM
To: Yigal Levin
Cc: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org; Jason Hare
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Ruth 1: 12 too old for a husband
Ok positive proof that my modern hebrew needs some serious
negotiation. I never meant 'too old to be a woman' but that is
obviously what I wrote quite funny since this is how I would have
said it in conversation and been laughed at. (made a similar mistake
in dutch many years ago when starting to learn - I ordered chips with
hot peanut butter sauce and onions - I instead asked for chips and
peanut butter sauce with lots of cows udders please! instead of
onions because the two words are only different by a single letter,
and I pronounced that single letter obviously)
Anyway it seems that by the framing of the language a woman's self
worth was heavily dependant upon being married? This is important
for me to understand because I am wondering whether naomi's lack of
self worth here is expressed or whether this would have been the
normal way of expressing a desire to be married?
Chris Watts
Ireland
On 22 Jul 2013, at 11:57, Yigal Levin wrote:
Hi Chris,
זקנתי להיות אשה would be "I am too old to be a woman",
which is of course nonsense, because even an old woman is still a
woman. A speaker of modern Hebrew would say something like אני
זקנה מדי להיות עם איש, "I am too old to be with a
man", since לאיש, "of/for a man" implies that the woman is
possessed by the man, and while this reflects the situation in
antiquity perfectly, it is not the way most couples in modern society
like to express their relationship. Also, a speaker of modern Hebrew
might prefer גבר instead of איש, since איש is often used for
"anyone" generically, while גבר is used for "man" specifically. So
להיות עם איש would sound like "to be with anyone", while
להיות עם גבר, "to be with a man", would hint at a sexual
relationship, which of course is exactly what Naomi is talking about.
Yigal Levin
-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-hebrew-
bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Chris Watts
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:28 PM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [b-hebrew] Ruth 1: 12 too old for a husband
The part of verse 12: זקנתי מהיות לאיש concentrating
on the mem prefix. Looking down my lists of how מן is used I have
presumed to fit it into the "Causal" category, (from arnold and choi
ref heb syntax book). Literally translated in idiomatic way: "I am
too old from being for a husband." It's interesting to see how
modern hebrew would say this: אני זקן מכדי שאהיה לי
הבעל they have also that nuance of 'from' followed by the verb
'being'. It is interesting to note that she does not say :
זקנתי להיות אישה