To: "'Yigal Levin'" <leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il>, "'b-hebrew'" <b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Kamatz katan
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 16:13:59 -0700
I think that I (kind of) agree with you. The KK certainly has an important
function - it preserves the ancestral /U/ vowel, which developed into /O/
but sometimes a shortened form of /O/ is needed -- and that's the KK. The
Hataf-Kamatz is a shortened from of Holam and is "close" (like a "relative"
of) to KK rather than to KG.
I'm not sure with which assumption in what I wrote there's a problem. Can
you please clarify?
Thanks,
Rivka Sherman-Gold
-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Yigal Levin
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 4:06 PM
To: b-hebrew
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Kamatz katan
The problem with this assumption, is the plain fact that the kamatz katan
fulfills a perfectly valid function. Every vowel in Hebrew has a long and
short form: Tsere and segol for E, hiriq with or without a yod for I, shuruq
and qubutz for U, and also Kamatz (gadol) and Patah for A. Since the "vav"
of the Holam is fairly arbitrary and does not effect pronounciation, there
would have to be a symbol for the short O, to be used whenever a short vowel
is called for. This is especially true of the Hataph-kamatz. In all other
cases the Hataph only goes with a short vowels - Hataph patah and hataph
segol. Just as there is no such thing as a hataph-tsere, the fact that there
is a hataph-kamatz shows that the kamatz is meant to be a "shorth" one.
Yigal Levin
----- Original Message -----
From: YODAN
To: leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 8:20 PM
Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] Kamatz katan; Ashkenazi pronunciation;was:
Translating
I believe that it is well established that the Masoretes used an identical
pronunciation for what grammarians later classified as two types of Kamatz
vowels. The Masoretic pronunciation is believed to be like the English "au"
or "aw" similar to that of traditional Ashkenazi and Yemenite pronunciations
of these vowels (which are pronounced identically in these two
pronunciations).
The fact that the original symbol of kamatz (see the Leningrad Codex and
Aleppo Codex) was not like a T letter (which is the current symbol of both
Kamatz vowels) but, rather, as a horizontal line under which there is a dot.
This is believed to reflect the pronunciation of kamatz by the Masoretes -
as something in between Patah (ah) and Holam (oh) - which is how au or aw is
pronounced.
The Sephardi pronunciation, which did not develop from the Masoretic
pronunciation but, rather, from the other Israeli pronunciation (called
sometimes "Palestinian" Hebrew, reflecting the name of the Land of Israel
during the Roman period and beyond. having nothing to do with the current
use of "Palestinian") had two different pronunciations for what the
Masoretes had a single pronunciation. The Sephardi pronunciation for kamatz
that developed from an original long AH is kamatz gadol (or Rahav) and is
pronounced by Sepharadim (and now also in Israeli Hebrew) like Patah,
whereas the kamatz that developed from an original UH vowel is called kamatz
katan (hatuf) and is pronounced in Sepharadi and Israeli Hebrew as OH (like
Holam). In practically all cases of kamatz katan there is an underlying
word with kubutz or shuruk (UH) or holam (OH) vowel, and this is a useful
way to recognize kamatz katan, particularly in cases where applying kamatz
katan rules is not straightforward
(especially when it's difficult to decide if a shva is naH or nA).
Rivka Sherman-Gold
Yodan Publishing
-----Original Message-----
From: b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces AT lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
leviny1 AT mail.biu.ac.il
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 6:18 AM
To: b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Kamatz katan; Ashkenazi pronunciation;was:
Translating
I think that the real question about the Kamatz katan is not when its
pronounced - the rules are pretty clear, though there are different
customs. The real question is, why the mesoretes used the same symbol for
two different (albeit related) vowels: the long a and the short o. Could
it
be that THEY pronounced them both the same? If so, how, as a long a or as
a
short o?
Yigal Levin
Original Message:
-----------------
From: Vadim Cherny VadimCherny AT mail.ru
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 10:36:51 +0300
To: yitzhaksapir AT gmail.com, b-hebrew AT lists.ibiblio.org