On 07/01/2005 23:54, B. M. Rocine wrote:
Hi Peter,
It seems like you are pretending that the English word *heart* only refers to the blood-pumping organ. It also means the center of a thing (as in "the heart of the sea") ...
I accept that this usage is an overlap. I don't think it's a common English usage, perhaps it is derived from the biblical idiom.
... and the seat of the emotions (as in "I love him with all my heart"). ...
This is an English sense of "heart", but is it a Hebrew one? According to BDB this is only a minor sense.
... These latter are very well shared with the Hebrew *leb*. I am sure *heart* means a lot of other things, too, some of which are shared with the Hebrew *leb* and some of which are not.
English *nose* does not mean anger, is hardly connected to anger, so *nose* will not always work as a translation for Hebrew *aph*.
Yes, and English "heart" does not refer to the mind, the will, moral character, conscience, or appetites, all of which are senses of Hebrew LEB according to BDB.
translation, there is a serious danger (and one which is arguably reflected in modern churches etc) that injunctions to use one's reason, will and moral character will be misunderstood as encouragement of emotionalism. The common Hebrew expression KWN LEB, often rendered "set [your] heart on", should refer to determination of the will but the English version is easily misunderstood as an injunction to romantic love.
This is not so hard.
In another post you quoted as problematic:
Jeremiah 4:4 "circumcise your hearts" (some kind of surgery?)
Jeremiah 6:10 "their ear is uncircumcised" (more surgery not carried out?)
Jer 4:4 doesn't read like that. ...
?? This is a direct quote of this verse in NIV. The verse can easily be understood as requiring the Judahites to undergo physical circumcision not in the usual place (where it had presumably already been done) but in their hearts.
After all, you seemed to agree that a literal translation of God having a long nose could not be used. But if that one can be explained, why can't the circumcised heart or ear? After all, just as "English *nose* does not mean anger, is hardly connected to anger", English "circumcise" does not mean what Jeremiah had in mind. Where is the difference?
There is an Italian expression that a translator is always a traitor.
And in some sense that is correct. If people want to read precisely what the original text said, they have to read the original. Translations have to do the best they can, which in some cases like this is perhaps not very good. So it all goes back to Bill's contract between the translator and the reader. If the reader wants something they understand without learning Hebrew, they need a translation. But they can't have their cake and eat it.
--
Peter Kirk
peter AT qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk AT qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/
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