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  • From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: [permaculture] Fwd: [compost_tea] Shifting a Compost Pile toward Fungi
  • Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:42:35 -0400

This is a great post. LL

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: EAReinheimer erica_r@charter.net [compost_tea] <
compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 6:21 PM
Subject: [compost_tea] Shifting a Compost Pile toward Fungi
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com




Hey,

I think we can all agree we'd rather keep our carbon in the compost than
let it go into the atmosphere as CO2.
As fungi retain more carbon in the soil than other microorganisms, the
obvious next question is,

"How can we nudge our compost piles toward producing more fungi?"

Fungi are more complex organisms than bacteria, and they can digest lignin,
whereas bacteria and actinomycetes cannot.
However, if we just add high lignin material to the pile we skew the C:N
ratio away from the 30:1 ratio many recommend.
(BTW, I recently learned that if you add "finished" compost with a 20:1
ratio to soil, at least it won't tie up nitrogen in the soil.
It's be great to have 13:1 compost; this ratio is the same as humus.)

I'd like to say something about the relative carbon fixing potential of
bacteria, actinomycetes, and fungi, but I don't really know nor can I find
their potentials. I think I read somewhere that bacteria can expire as much
as 80% of the carbon as CO2, whereas fungi can sequester all but 20%??

While looking for this data, I did run across this bit of research,
Ectomycorrhizal and ericoid mycorrhizal (EEM) fungi produce
nitrogen-degrading enzymes, allowing them greater access to organic
nitrogen sources than arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) fungi8
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12901.html#ref8>,
9
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12901.html#ref9>,
10
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12901.html#ref10>.
This leads to the theoretical prediction that soil carbon storage is
greater in ecosystems dominated by EEM fungi than in those dominated by AM
fungi11
<http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12901.html#ref11>.
Using global data sets, we show that soil in ecosystems dominated by
EEM-associated plants contains 70% more carbon per unit nitrogen than soil
in ecosystems dominated by AM-associated plants.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7484/full/nature12901.html

So, I guess it's not really surprising that different sorts of fungi
sequester different amounts of carbon.

Comments are welcome. I guess this is my learning mode - take a subject as
far as I can and await clarification.

Thanks,

Erica

On 9/21/2015 11:27 AM, Elaine Ingham soilfoodweb@aol.com [compost_tea]
wrote:



Hi Erica --

Here's a short, short version of an explanation, and if you have questions,
perhaps take a soil microbiology course at University, or take a on-line
course such as the ones we offer through soilfoodweb.com

Humus is only made through the actions of microbes, but it is the fungal
component of that community of organisms that is most important in building
carbon structures that are long-term savings of carbon in the soil. The
more carbon from any sugar, protein, amino acid, lipid, etc that enters the
soil and is used as food by bacteria and fungi that is condensed into more
and more complex molecules, and thus reserved and held in the soil, the
more carbon can be sequestered. The more complex that condensed carbon,
the longer it is held in soil as humus, i.e., humic "acids" and fulvic
"acids". Please note those are really just naming conventions, most of
those molecules are not actually acids. these compounds are highly
complex, highly condensed, long-turnover (1000 years or more in some cases)
compounds.

Fungal activity and biomass is a huge part of building these complex
compounds. Because of the way fungi grow, they leave behind almost pure
carbon pipes as the growing tip of the fungus continues to search for food
to grow. fungi in general, only respire 20% of the carbon they take up as
CO2, and retain 80% of the carbon they take up, as these carbon put down in
the walls of the hyphae they leave behind. I do want to point out that the
methods that many soil scientists use to assess fungal versus bacterial
metabolism ignores all of this carbon left behind in the soil by fungi.
And thus they disregard the contributions of soil life to humus production.


When you compost, I'm sure you have noticed that as the plant material is
decomposed, there are times when 50 to 70% of the pile "disappears",
because decomposition has respired that much of the mass of the plant
material. Loss of that much mass indicates that most of the decomposition
was done by bacteria, as bacteria have to blow off that much carbon to
concentrate all the nutrients that they require to stay alive. Managing
soil such that there is just bacteria alone in soil is incorrect. Fungi
have to concentrate nutrients too, just like bacteria, but the fungal
method of dealing with the excess carbon is to leave that carbon in the
hyphae that the fungus leaves behind. Fungi and, and often do, return
along that empty carbon pipe it left behind, if it finds itself in a part
of the soil that has no food for it to grow.

When soils people use chloroform fumigation methods to assess microbial
biomass, they miss as much as 95% of the soil microbial biomass, because
the complex carbon molecules that compose fungal hyphae will not decompose
in the short incubation conditions of that particular assay method. when
soils people use respiration metohd, they again can miss as much as 95% of
the fungal biomass that is present in soil, or even bacterial bionmass
present as spores.

So, they are sadly mis-informing the public, and other scientists, about
the importance of soil life in building soil carbon.

If you make sure to have excellent fungal biomass in your compost, you will
see a much darker color of humus produced, meaning more carbon is being
held in the complex forms, and much less mass / volume of the compost will
be lost. In general, I'm not happy with my compost pile unless I only
"lose" 20% or less of the pile. Most of the plant material needs to stay
as organic matter, not be lost as CO2, and that means I have to have good
fungi growing in that pile.

How can you assess if you have good fungi in the compost? You need to
learn to use a simple shadowing microscope. We can train you, on-line, to
do that, and teach you what the different organisms look like within a
day. You need to practice after that and when you have "unknowns" you take
a picture and send to me or one of the folks at the farm, and we will help
you figure out what the critter is. Pretty soon though, you'll have the
confidence to look at soil, sediments, manure, compost, kimchee, yogurt,
etc on your own and be confidant about what you are identifying.

Hope this helps....... I know I had to keep it to the bare bones, so I also
hope it makes sense!

Elaine R. Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc. Soil Life Consultant
Since I travel a great deal, please consider that I may miss e-mails so if
I don't answer within 3 days, please try again.


-----Original Message-----
From: EAReinheimer erica_r@charter.net [compost_tea]
<compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
To: compost_tea <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Compost Question


I am quite interested in how one can keep carbon in the soil once it is
applied. Perhaps others can explain how humification works. I'll start with
this quote:

Humification:
Adding organic carbon to soil is one thing,
keeping it there is another. Organic carbon moves between
various ‘pools’ in the soil, some of which are short lived while
others may persist for thousands of years. Carbon additions
need to be combined with land management practices that
foster the conversion of relatively transient forms of organic
carbon to more stable complexes within the soil.
In the humification process, soil microbes resynthesise and
polymerise labile carbon (exuded from plant roots) into high
molecular weight stable humic substances. Humus, a gel-like
substance that forms an integral component of the soil matrix,
is the best known of the stable organic fractions.
Humification cannot proceed unless there is a continuous
supply of ‘fuel’ for soil microbes. If humification does not occur, the
carbon exuded from plant roots (or added to soil as
plant residues or manure) simply oxidises and recycles back to the
atmosphere as carbon dioxide.

http://www.amazingcarbon.com/PDF/Jones-EvergreenFarming%28Sept07%29.pdf

Humification and mineralization are on-going processes opposed to each
other. Humification builds soil organic matter, and mineralization breaks
down humus, releasing minerals (hopefully at the time there is a crop ready
to use them). Promoting mineralization is quite easy. Just add air (till)
the soil. How does one promote humification? You keep things growing all
the time (but then there's that weed problem....)

I'll tell you how I tread the line between humification and mineralization.
(And I'd love to hear a better method)

I don't make very good compost, because I lack motorized equipment to turn
it.
I use straw mulch in the summer and fall, but I have to rake the straw
aside when direct seeding or transplanting. Otherwise, the seedlings are
devoured by the insects that live in the mulch. (BTW, I still need to float
some row cover over the seedlings to protect them from birds).

When the seedlings are about 5" high, I can think about returning the straw
mulch. First, though, I put a layer of my proto-compost around the
seedlings. Then I cover that with a loose 2"-3" layer of straw.

In a few months the proto-compost has turned into real compost, and in the
process I have fed the microbes for awhile. The proto-compost might get
scratched into the surface a bit as I weed from time-to-time. Does this
process promote humification?

Thanks,

Erica



On 9/17/2015 6:14 PM, John Bridges <jbridgestx@yahoo.com>
jbridgestx@yahoo.com [compost_tea] wrote:


If you add cl ay, vermiculite, zeolite or any non organic matter to a
compost pile?
You can actually reduce your compost nutrient ho lding potential.

As the living soil biology's nutrient holding capacity in really good
compost.
Is almost limitless.

Far in excess of any weak negative and positive ion attraction.
Which dead soil or dead compost, only has.

Life changes everything.


John Bridges

Bridges Heritage Growers
Keller, Texas
In the woods & soils of the Cross Timbers
2012 USDA zone 8a
AHS Heat Zone 9
Sunset zone 33
Dallas, Fort Worth area



On Thursday, September 17, 2015 4:08 PM, "EAReinheimer <erica_r@charter.net>
erica_r@charter.net [compost_tea]" <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
<compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





If you add clay (or vermiculite or zeolite) to the pile, it'll hold on to
some of the cations that will otherwise be lost.

Folk wisdom says to keep the compost:soil ratio below 33%.
The more compost in the soil, the faster it'll try to get to your climate's
natural equilibrium, which is rarely over 5%, often 2%.
If you want to conserve your compost, keep the ratio below 10%.

Erica




On 9/17/2015 9:46 AM, Chuck Barker <chuckiebtoo@yahoo.com>
chuckiebtoo@yahoo.com [compost_tea] wrote:


Consider: PURE (100%)? compost mixed 50/50, or some less percentage, with
good ole soil will convince that soil to become more like it. All that
good activity in the real-deal compost will spread out.

Matter of fact, I get compost integrated into less-blessed soils ASAP.

Chuckiebtoo



On Thursday, September 17, 2015 10:15 AM, "Mary Tucker <mjtucke2@gmail.com>
mjtucke2@gmail.com [compost_tea]" <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
<compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Hi,

I have been lurching on this group for a couple of years and really
appreciate the information. I now grow worms for most of my teas, but
really compost itself is also necessary for my extensive garden. Needless
to say I have built piles from many different things in many different ways
(grass and saw dust, garden debris and manure, weeds and straw---fast and
hot, slow and cold, fast enough to stay hot, etc)

Recently a man I met asked me how much my compost shrank from beginning to
end. Another rather famous biodynamic prep maker told me that first compost
decomposes the it recomposes. Well, I had never thought of it exactly that
way, but yes it does "cure" in my mind to have its own qualities.
.
So now I want to know if any of you have heard of a technique to build a
pile that has less shrinkage. I imagine that a lot of nutrients/critters
could go into the air (or somewhere) and that keeping the shrinkage would
be of great benefit

Any ideas folks? Elaine?









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--
Lawrence F. London
lfljvenaura@gmail.com
https://sites.google.com/site/avantgeared/



  • [permaculture] Fwd: [compost_tea] Shifting a Compost Pile toward Fungi, Lawrence London, 09/27/2015

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