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  • From: A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [permaculture] Scientific study data on nutrition and permaculture for a PhD thesis
  • Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2014 23:36:59 +1100

Does anyone have tips for one of my graduates who is now doing a PhD in permaculture and nutrition.
can you please indicate where there may be scientific data from research.
Cheers

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*April S-Kelly*
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On 3/01/2014 4:00 AM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: The weakening of Permaculture. (Toby Hemenway)
2. Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu (Lawrence London)
3. Re: Aquaponics: artificial? (georg parlow)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 21:33:30 -0800
From: Toby Hemenway <toby@patternliteracy.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] The weakening of Permaculture.
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <B3E5259C-0F21-4714-8719-E5D97085D5B3@patternliteracy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

First, I'd avoid arguing that people who disagree with you don't "get it." It's
tempting to retort that someone who dogmatically says that aquaponics isn't permaculture needs a
remedial PDC, too, but that's too rude for me to ever say! The points Steve is making are
elementary permaculture: mimic nature and don't work against it, avoid "artificial"
systems, grow healthy food. I think we here are all smart enough to get them. And I agree with
all of them. We just see their application differently.

This is why I am continuing with this thread. Steve seems to be saying that it's only
permaculture if it's made in the same form nature uses, and I think we are better guided by the
processes, principles, and systems of nature rather than by whether a plant grows in dirt or not,
and that's a critical distinction (how amended can soil be before it's not "natural,"
anyway? 2% peat moss? 50%?). I don't think of permaculture as a thing, as something you can point
to and say "This is (or is not) permaculture." If a permaculture design process was
used to arrive at a decision, then that is a permacultural application. And I have seen excellent
design processes that arrive at aquaponics as part of a permaculture system.

I need to see data showing that aquaponics food is less nutritious than
soil-grown. I see no basis. Nature grows many plants in water. In fact, the
controlled conditions of aquaponics should give superb nutrient uptake.
Plants stressed by the vagaries of soil and weather usually have fewer
nutrients than crops that grow evenly and quickly via ample access to food,
water, and warmth.

If permaculture is about mimicking nature in the way Steve suggests, we are
doing it all wrong. Nature does not do keyline plowing, or planting on
contour, or zoning by frequency of use, or grafting, or hot composting, or
worm bins, nor does it build earthworks in rational ways. Few of our methods
mimic the form of nature.

That's because we're designing, which is something nature does not do.
Permaculture mimics nature's processes and systems, not the form or objects,
so we will often arrive at forms (like aquaponics or a swale) that don't look
like nature's form, but the processes are. Aquaponics is a superb mimic of an
estuarine ecosystem, using the same natural processes and nutrients.

A basic tenet is that permaculturists design for specific sites and
conditions. Do I want to see aquaponics supplant soil-based systems? Of
course not; I'm not an idiot. In most cases, soil-based growing is more
appropriate than aquaponics. Do I see specific conditions when aquaponics
fits all the criteria of permaculture design as the best method to fill
important needs? Absolutely.

A perfect role for aquaponics in permaculture design is an urban setting where soil is
toxic or absent, land is too dear for food growing, where animals can't be raised for
food, in "food deserts" where all food sold in a region is junk (it is a
privilege to be able to choose, or afford, or grow healthy food, one denied to many
urbanites).

I've seen several great examples of this. One is the aquaponics systems in
Will Allen's Growing Power site in Milwaukee, another the GrowHaus in Denver.
Both of these are in impoverished areas; the GrowHaus is in a food desert, a
polluted industrial area of low-income people of color. Their large
aquaponics systems provide not just fresh organic food in place of the
poisonous crap in local stores, but income opportunities for the locals, a
social nexus, business experience, farm training, and education around food,
agricultural traditions, social justice, whole systems, and community
activism.

If that's a "weakening" of permaculture rather than one of the best examples
in the world of deep permaculture, I'm a monkey's uncle. And that is why I would never
be dogmatic about whether an object is or is not permaculture. It is about where it
fits in the system, and very little about what it is made of.

And I love what Steve Waldron wrote:

The great strength of the aquaponics system is that it really grabs
people's attention and gets them interested in feedback loops and
plant/animal synergies. It's subversive eco-pedagogy at its best.
That is great permaculture design.

Happy New Year to all,

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com


On Dec 31, 2013, at 1:34 PM, Steve Hart wrote:

This debate began by me using the Aquaponics Hydroponics issues as classic
examples of one example of the whole weakening of Permaculture. Quite
obviously, to me anyway, many just don't get it. At least my argument
anyway.

Our challenge in Permaculture is to mimic nature and work with her not
against it. It is not an arbitrary debate. It actually calls for greater
respect and dilgence and perhaps more intelligence. Not all existing
farming is artificial. But we are certainly breeding ageneration of very
lazy caretakers who are rapidly farming off the directions on the back of a
plastic bottle and under the doctrines of accountants and the banksters.

A and H are synthetic imitation attempts at production to the detriment of
the consumer. Have we forgotten the experiment that lead to the movie on
eating only Macdonalds ? "Super Size Me " ?. Then of course there is the
Mollisonism "The Bruce Effect"

For optimal health we need connection to the real qualities of soil and
water. Artificial systems do not offer this. We do not need artificial
inputs either to develop best water and soil. But, a far greater
understanding of what exists in nature and all its realms in order to
develop patterns and processes and procedures to get there. If one can not
or will not respect this reality then its time for another Permaculture
Design Course by a tutor that will explore and instill these realities in
all the teachings. ...Steve Hart

Seems to me there is a hell of a lot more learning and realisation needed
for this debate to progress anywhere...Steve Hart


On 31 December 2013 13:00, <permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org> wrote:



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 04:35:51 -0500
From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free |
Hulu
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<CA+j2Q+CUC1q0eNmpu9-vG1cGEcBKh6w2d1cmgkMRkwHnWRwByA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Watch Vanishing of the Bees online | Free | Hulu
http://www.hulu.com/watch/397072


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 17:37:54 +0100
From: georg parlow <g.parlow@gmx.at>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Aquaponics: artificial?
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C8AE4B03-D716-47CB-92C0-AB81839926A5@gmx.at>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes

I am feeding with homemade pellets - I make them from organic oil
press cake (hemp, almond, sesame and linseed), whole meal spelt flour,
and a little rockdust. All of it purchased, I admit. I grow my own
duckweed to supplement. For next season I plan to set up my BSF larvae
production (with setting up the main system I could not focus on that,
and it failed), and a tank growing a small native crawfish on tree
leaves and veggy scraps for fich food .

Georg


Am 30.12.2013 um 18:43 schrieb Pete Gasper, Gasper Family Farm:

To me, fish food is a huge input, and one that is often
unsustainable. What
examples do you know of that do it without fish food inputs (or very
little)?

Pete

On 12/29/2013 02:57 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
Almost none of that is the case for aquaponics. It is a low-input,
closed loop system, very different. Fish food is the primary input,
though I know of systems that use almost no purchased fish food.
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-- who are designing ecological land use systems with integrated elements for
synergy, sustainability, regeneration and enhanced nature-compatible human
habitat

End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 3
********************************************





  • [permaculture] Scientific study data on nutrition and permaculture for a PhD thesis, A Sampson-Kelly, 01/03/2014

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