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  • From: Bob Waldrop <bob@bobwaldrop.net>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
  • Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 20:14:11 -0500

Anyone without a PDC can do pretty well learning permaculture with my nearly-cheap-as-dirt-399-thousand-word ebook on permaculture, downloadable for only US $1.99 at http://www.ipermie.net, as a PDF, which is also available in all the other ebook formats (Kindle, Apple i store, Nook, etc.

Permaculture, as a marketplace, comes in a variety of prices, there really is something for everybody.

Bob Waldrop, Oklahoma City
http://www.ipermie.net -- How to permaculture your urban lifestyle

On 6/8/2013 7:31 PM, Lawrence London wrote:
On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Steve Hart
<stevenlawrencehart@gmail.com>wrote:

LL...I thought I did respond...maybe got lost in Lemuria...again here

Titled "John Douglas' Problem...Solution ?

Hi John....as an old campaigner of PC...I congratulate you on your
successes in developing what you have in Panama. A close friend of mine has
business there and invited me several times....perhaps if I make it to
IPC11 in Cuba I may stop by. It seems to me that you have so much to offer
the region and it also then seems so valuable for you to actually
facilitate a very good PDC right at your doorstep. But, make sure you
engage a very well qualified and experienced teacher. Once you have
convened a PDC and participated fully then you will appreciate many more
values of the larger dynamic of what Permaculture offers. Go hard...this is
your next obvious journey....keep me posted...Steve Hart

LL....have you created a PDC at your back door too ?...Steve

No, why should I? I created and run this list, am a market gardener and a
woodworker's and gardener's tool maker. I was a landscape contractor
and yes it would be a perfect logical step to move from landscape design to
permaculture design. I wish now that I had followed that path
and in the process developed a PDC (after taking one myself) and an online
course. While I was off going in the wrong direction Dan Hemenway
developed wonderful PC resources and courses. Just ask Bob Waldrop.

I will repeat what I said to anyone whether they offer a PDC or not:

Those that just sit and rail against every online PDC with a hefty price
tag saying that it goes against pc principles, let alone ethics
are either not awake, thinking clearly or just have a narrow view of the
world around them. Refined academics who create gems of wisdom embodied in
their PDC's are to be applauded, respected, appreciated and amply rewarded.
That's my take on it
based on wisdom I have gained since the 1950's.

There are many ways to bring permaculture to the world to people with
plenty of money or people will little means.
The substance of the course is what is important. Synergy created by a
group taking the course is also very important.

As Alan Chadwick said:

Allen Chadwick said, "We need to create the beauty and the quality first.
The quantity will follow."


LL

On 9 June 2013 11:26, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems to mre that if a PDC teacher has spent a lifetime learning
permaculture, building a PC knowledgebase,
collecting and organizing information archives consisting of his and
others
writings, gleaning the best that is available
over decades of listening, reading and learning and that teacher infuses
his PDC with the distilled essence of his knowkedgebase
then you have in that PODC the best that person has to offer, in other
words his or her Magnum Opus. If his or her PDC is offered once a year
at a price of $1000 per student and twenty students take the online
course, that is $20,000 per year income if that is his or her only source
of financial gain. Subtract, taxes, course overhead expenses and you have
pretty meager income.

Those that just sit and rail against every online PDC with a hefty price
tag saying that it goes against pc principles, let alone ethics
are either not awake, thinking clearly or just have a narrow view of the
world around them. Refined academics who create gems of wisdom embodied
in
their PDC's are to be
applauded, respected, appreciated and amply rewarded. That's my take on
it
based on wisdom I have gained since the 1950's. Anyone else have
comments?
Steve Hart?

LL

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Lawrence London <lfljvenaura@gmail.com
wrote:

On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 6:32 PM, john douglas <
johnarthurdouglas99@yahoo.com> wrote:

I want to some day take a PDC course. Meanwhile, I bought some
Permaculture and related books. About 80 books that cost $200.00.

Meanwhile, in the last 4 years i have given tours in my Permaculture
farm, in Panama, to maybe 1500 people, talks to maybe 2500 more and
have
had 200?? volunteers, various who have taken PDCs, and a few who have
had
their own Permaculture farms. we all learned.


That's the way forward. You are doing great work, John.


A lot of lives have been changed here in various positive ways.

yes, i want to take a PDC course on line or live some day.

but to pay $1000.00 for an on line course, i find the idea offensive
and
contrary to Permaculture principles.
IT AINT NECESSARY AT ALL.


It depends on what is being offered. Correspondence courses can be very
valuable whether online or paper or a combination..
If the online PDC provides to subscribers literature for you to
download
and print out, videos, galleries of photographs,
drawings and plans organized collection of documents, plus do all the
advertisinf and promotion, subscription and financial management
and all legal liabilities associated, that can be well worth $1000,
easily. The devil is in the details in this case. If the teacher pays
himself $25 per hour to
create, process, put online all the above resources listed plus pay for
server space, ISP fee, shopping cart, and ongoing management of the
curriculum
during the course, correspond with subscribers, answer questions, give
advice and guidance. For a good, robust course that lasts over a period
of
six to eight weeks
$1000 could be considered a bargain. Of course there are plenty of
scambags that give online PDC's a bad name but those types can be
completely ignored.

LL



john Don Perezoso = The Lazy Farmer ....THE SECRET IS IN THE GARBAGE


WEBSITE English http://www.organicpanamapermaculture.com/


SITIO de WEB EspaƱol
http://organicopanamapermacultura.yolasite.com/

Spanish Videos
VIDEO desde Pecha Kucha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zmmOKk3gH8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfQkPdiZWRU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCCajj2rfEY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO39F9beTNQ


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To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 11:00 AM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 125, Issue 15


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Today's Topics:

1. Re: New online Certificate course (Andrew Millison)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 08:32:44 -0700
From: Andrew Millison <amillison@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: Keith Johnson <keithdj@mindspring.com>, Deston Denniston
<abundancepc@gmail.com>, Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>,
Albert
Bates
<albert@thefarm.org>, Peter Bane <pcactivist@comcast.net>
Message-ID:
<
CAKo1s6EWVhHYeoQQTWbLc3W5MjqcoFByTZhNp1VZda_v0GmV-A@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hello,
As a follow up to this conversation, I wrote an article about online
Permaculture education, for anyone who wants to explore the subject
more
deeply. It's a bit long to paste in an e-mail, so here's the link:



http://www.beaverstatepermaculture.com/profiles/blogs/e-pdc-the-case-for-online-permaculture-education
Enjoy the day!

Andrew


On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Michael Pilarski <
friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:

Hello Christopher,

Thank you for your feedback on the value of on-line pdcs. I thought
it
was the most in-depth comparison I have seen thus far and certainly
agree
with your assessment.


In-person pdcs have a lot more depth to them than on-line courses.
That
said, I believe there is still room for on-line courses. But people
should
sign on to them knowing what they are missing. I wouldn't be
surprised
that people who take on-line courses are good candidates to sign up
for
on
the ground pdcs later on. So it is not either/or but both have
their
own
values. An on-line course may be inferior in general but they are
good
to
serve the people who can only do the on-line course for whatever
reason(s).

The movement should come up with more ways to assess the quality of
on-line courses being offered as well as in-the-flesh pdcs. A
high-quality, on-line course can be better then some of the more
inferior
residential or weekend courses. Right now all we have is informal
gossip.

It is great to hear how you have continued with your pdc work and
reaching
so many people in Belize. "Good on you", as they say in Australia.
I
am
pleased to have you on my list of students who are teaching pdcs.


Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds


Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski



________________________________
From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt@mmrfbz.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Cc: Kelda Miller <kelda@riseup.net>; Keith Johnson <
keithdj@mindspring.com>;
Colin Doyle <colin@lostvalley.org>; Rich Blaha <rblaha@abrinc.com>;
Albert Bates <albert@thefarm.org>; Peter Bane <
pcactivist@comcast.net
;
Deston Denniston <abundancepc@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [permaculture] New online Certificate course


I have been busy and wanted to chime in on this, echoing some of
what
has
been said: I think, for me, that I feel an aspect of the in the
flesh
PDC
that would have to be missing is the fellowship of being in one
place,
the
community of group learning. I took my PDC in 1991, and it was
transformative, literally. My farm is the fruit of that. Part of
what
I
walked away with was imparted by interacting with other students
during
the
design phase, and during the presentation of the course material.
There
was
one emotional meltdown during the PDC, one bickering feud that
flowered
into yelling (one of the two participants was me), early morning
coffee,
late night conversations, and several romances that blossomed, grew
and
dissipated, or became full fledged relationships. I met my ex-wife
during
that PDC. So much of what I experienced was related to human beings
and
interactions, site observation, walking, eating, sitting, talking.
That
was
a huge part of what
I walked away with. T
he wisdom and teaching talent of Michael Pilarski, Rick Valley,
Chuck
Marsh, Jose Caballero and Mark Cohen would be hard to put into an
online
format.

One of the things I have observed in the PDC I attended, which
Michael
was
the lead teacher of, and in the eight PDCs I have hosted and
co-taught
is
the amount of instant feedback available to students. Students
frequently
have questions tied to an aspect of the curriculum that can be
expanded
on.
In the courses I have co-taught, Albert, for example, is fantastic
at
this,
so is Toby Hemenway. I have seen this many times with Albert, who
may
be
teaching something and one of the students will ask a question,
related,
but tangential to the topic, and Albert steps back, answers the
question,
ties it to other things, shows how it is in relation to the larger
topic,
or a topic previously discussed, and moves forward. I love these
downloads
because they are responsive and dynamic and informative. How can a
static
format like an online course be like that? I don't think they can
be.
I attended Antioch College a long time ago. I loved some of my
classes,
Harold Wrights "Cultural History of Japan", for example. I loved his
teaching. A few years ago, I took an online course in grant writing.
It
was
good, and there was some feedback and interplay between students
through
the "chalboard.com" media. I got a 4.0, a sort of triumphant return
to
academia after my meteoric Antioch College experience. I liked it. I
found
it informative, especially since the subject was all about writing,
about
how to prepare a statement of need that will make funders weep and
reach
for pens and checkbooks, and subsequently lay down the ways you
intend
to
address the target issue, but I wonder how much I might have learned
in
an
actual classroom. It was nothing like watching John Ronsheim (sp)
teach
a
music class, animated, moving, flowing, changes of tone in speech,
change
in facial expressions, humor, sarcasm, surprise, dismay, and, above
all, a
palpable and
genuine love of music.
I didn't take his class, but merely sat in on one class, one day,
and
walked away with at least an appreciation of what a Good Teacher can
to
when presenting material they care about. In that one 90 minute
class,
there were so many subtle and nuanced relationships to the subject
matter
that, now, close to 30 years later, I remember it vividly. Can a day
on
the
internet give you that?

Then there is the question of pedagogy to target audience. In the 8
PDCs I
have hosted, we have taught close to 70 Belizeans. Some were funded
by
external agencies, most were scholarships that we provided with the
cooperation of the teachers. Some of the students were mid-level
people in
the Ministry of Agriculture, Belizeans who have been trained in
schools,
have a high degree of written literacy. Some were part time
extension
officers, full time farmers, farmers whose primary language is
either
Kekchi or Mopan Maya, and who can read and write, but whose literacy
is
profoundly visual/botanic. Most farmers are not well served by
chalkboard/classroom method of information transfer. Their literacy
is
not
"academic". Their strengths are visual, with a high degree of
botanic
literacy. They walk through the farm and GET IT. They see what is
working,
and what is not. They know most of the plants and hone in on plants
they do
not know. Most of them have no
access to computers or co
mputer literacy. That is an audience that an online PDC cannot
reach.
Yet
they are the people who can IMMEDIATELY apply the information they
are
exposed to to their land.

Can a PDC be presented in an online format? Not the PDC I took,
with a
lot
of hands on work, a host of teachers with deep knowledge bases,
students in
comradery, fellowship, field visits to amazing farmers, and
certainly
not
the ones I co-teach, which are heavy on evidence, using the venue of
my
farm as a way to present permaculture practices, decades in the
making,
well developed, having been actively managed with permaculture in
mind
for
over 20 years, and field visits to some of those same amazing
farmers.
Can
the internet make a batch of biochar? Can the internet collect food
to
send
to an elderly feeding program? Can you walk in the shade of an
agroforestry
system designed and maintained for the last 24 years on the
internet?
Can
the internet put hand in compost? Can the internet sit in the light
of a
light bulb powered by photovoltaics (well, yes, if the system is
solar
powered...)? Can the internet use an A frame level and dig a swale?
Not
really.
The internet is flat.
The textures can be rendered, but always in two dimensions. There
is
no
smell, no taste, no changing sunlight, no early morning coffee, no
late
night conversation, no legs touching legs on a bench, no squeak of
chalk on
a chalk board. I would not consider them to be equal in any way. I
am
not
saying that an online PDC cannot impart a lot of information, it
definitely
can, but the information will be flatter than a textured, dynamic
and
flowing PDC in flesh and blood, with dirt under fingernails, groups
of
people talking with passion, and cold coffee in 3/4 empty mugs.

And $2200 for an internet course in permaculture? Sorry, but I do
not
see
that! There are so many great flesh and blood courses out there for
about
half that, why would anyone take an online course for $2200?

I don't see the need for a class like this.



_____________________________
Christopher Nesbitt

Maya Mountain Research Farm
San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
BELIZE,
Central America

Country code 501-630-4386

www.mmrfbz.org
www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm




On May 4, 2013, at 10:56 AM, Rhonda Baird wrote:

Bill Wilson at Midwest Permaculture offers a partial online
experience.
People do self-study for the first week's content and come
together
at a
location to do a second week in person. I know that has been in
place
for
some years.

I have to say that I have been developing an interest in
organizing
an
on-line course in combination with a shorter periods of in-person
support.
I'm surprised at my own interest and the logic driving it, as I
strongly
prefer in-person, face-to-face experiences. I am particularly
thinking of
pairing with my state's technical schools as a good place to
work. I
think
one of the keys--and Andrew Millison seems to do this well--is to
provide
community online and personal mentoring and support for practical
work on
the ground where the student is located. While less perfect than a
residential course, I do think this has its place as time goes on
and
worth
careful exploration.

I have been part of an online community for 14 years that does its
education and community-building online punctuated by optional
weekend
intensives. In fact, I run a portion of the online educational
programs,
so
I know there are a number of challenges and benefits. There are
lots
of
options now--compared to 1998 when I got involved.

walk in peace,
Rhonda Baird


On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Michael Pilarski <
friendsofthetrees@yahoo.com> wrote:

I would like to see a comparative review of all the on-line pc
design
courses offered. Prices, etc. Dan Hemenway has offered them for
years.
I
believe there are others in Australia ? (pre Geoff L). I have
deep
respect
for Andrew Millison and Marisha Auerbach who are offering a new
on-line
course. Who are the others?


I would also like to hear some comments by people who have gone
through
an
on-line pdc. They would be the best people to judge how well it
works.
If
there is no one on this list serve who has done an on-line course
that
is
not a good sign. If there is no one who has taken an on-line
course
that
would give it good marks that is not a good sign.


I think on-line courses have their place, but just like
residential
or
weekend pdcs they are not all created equal.


As Peter Bane opines, $2200 for Geoff Lawton's online pdc is not
a
good
deal. Geoff L. says his course is limited in size? How
limited, I
would
like to know.


Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
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www.beaverstatepermaculture.com


------------------------------

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--
Kia ora

[image: Picture]
*Steve Hart*
Ecology Architect
skype: stevenlawrencehart
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