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  • From: Daniel Jager <dfjager@yahoo.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Know your ecosystem
  • Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:11:09 -0800 (PST)

--- On Tue, 12/27/11, wenshidi@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Where did you get all of your seeds to start with?? I have
> been looking for breadfruit for a long time especially.

During the flood I evacuated to the Philippines, and got in touch with a
rare-fruit growers network there to get seeds. Dr. Roberto Coronel, former
prof. at Uni UP Los Banos, has a rare fruit conservation farm. I got fruit
and seeds from him directly. He is very helpful. Well worth a visit.
Seedless breadfruit is called '(Ton) Saa-ke' in Thailand. It is readily
available at Talad Thai, some 40 km north of Bangkok. I also saw some on sale
at JJ market in Bangkok on Wed and Thu morning. It is NOT flood resistant
however. If you want a flood resistant species of breadfruit, go for breadnut
(Artocarpus camansi). This is known for its flood tolerance.

> "And yet, the abandoned housing allotments around my house
> were still vibrant, much as they were before the flood. Most
> trees even started to bloom like there hadn't even been a
> flood.
> The area, former rice fields drained 20 years ago and left
> to develop naturally, is overgrown with Darwin Black
> wattles, Raintrees and Leadtrees. The underbrush in the
> rainy season is dense and diverse and lianas are already up
> to an inch thick in places. And best of all, none of this
> was planted; it is all just natural regeneration on these
> waterlogged soils."
>
> So how are you planning to optimise the yields of these
> natural species?

These natural species have not much food value, so no sense in 'optimizing'.
Perfectly adapted species, however, always seem to thrive and need very
little optimization.

> "So I wondered what these trees knew that I didn't know.
> I found out that the land in and around Bangkok was
> originally fresh water swamp forest, often inundated for 6
> months in a row, very much like some areas in the Amazon
> delta in South America. Now it rarely floods though. Still
> the soils outside of the raised gardens get very soggy in
> the rainy season. So soggy, that most tree roots have a hard
> time and not many trees will take.
> The dumb part is, I should have known this! I trained in
> uni as a Physical Geographer and I grew up in the
> Netherlands, of all swampy places in the world. It guess it
> was my pride and ignorance that dismissed the obvious
> evidence in my location and resolved to grow unadapted
> trees."
>
> The key seems to be finding out what was on the original
> site, although this can sometimes be quite difficult.? The
> area where I spend much of the year (not actually Thailand)
> is supposedly high altitude deciduous monsoon forest, but
> even looking at photos of the area that are more than 100
> years old, it is very difficult to confirm this.

The original swamp forest in central Thailand is nearly completely wiped out.
Hardly any chance to figure out what grew here naturally. And yes, most other
parts of Thailand has been 'civilized' for too long, meaning altered
environment for 100's of years. If you want some real tree knowledge, it is
better to approach the hilltribe forest dwellers. They may tell you many
useful things (although the lowland farmers also have a wealth of info on
edible (wild) plants).

> "While in flood evacuation, I went to look for fruit trees
> that can grow in tropical fresh water swamp conditions, and
> was surprised that I managed to find some 40 species that
> can tolerate it, to varying degrees. So I restarted the
> garden already with seeds from specially adapted trees."
>
> So which species did you you identify, and how did you go
> about finding seeds for these species?
> Is there a good seed market near Bangkok or did you just
> collect from the wild?

This information is readily available on the web, but not SO readily that one
can do a simple search. It took me 6 weeks, working some 3 to 4 hours on the
web, plus my own observations and knowledge to compile my list. And I am sure
it is not complete yet. 40+ species is a little too much to reprint here.
Getting seeds? Should be hard. Try Kasetsart university, horticulture
department, in Bangkok. Most places sell seedlings or worse (IMO), grafted
varieties. My seeds, as I said earlier, are partly from the rare fruit
conservation farm in the Philippines.

> Are there any areas of Bangkok that still have their
> natural flora?? I was always impressed by the gardens of the
> Apostolic Nunciature whenever I went past on the skytrain,
> but I suppose even that is all decorative and ornamental.
>
> "In Natural farming, or in Permaculture, if we are
> perceptive and recognize the limitations of our location,
> and seek perfectly adapted species to suit our conditions, I
> have know doubt we will be successful AND fully in-tune with
> Nature."
>
> Do you have any tips on how to identify this natural state
> for each particular area?

I doubt we can find a 'natural state' for the central Chao Phraya floodplain
anymore. The best we can do is try mixed forest gardening, with useful
species from similar climates / locations. Just create something new and
functional on our own.

Regards,
Daniel




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