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  • From: Alia Tsang <alia@dietrick.org>
  • To: permaculture <permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
  • Subject: Re: [permaculture] Fwd: Re: [SANET-MG] strategies for boron rich and/or hydrophobic soils
  • Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 14:04:40 -0700

By the way, the second link mentions that sheep and goats will graze on
dense stands of Lepidium, that could be another angle to look at.


On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Alia Tsang <alia@dietrick.org> wrote:

> I was wondering if the Lepidium might be having allelopathic effects that
> are preventing seeds from germinating and found this:
>
> From Renz (2000): Young and others (1995b) have also shown that L.
> latifolium interferes with the
> regeneration of plant species such as willows and cottonwoods. Studies from
> California and Nevada
> show that L. latifolium populations displace and/or interfere with the
> regeneration of native plants
> through competition, exclusion, and possibly allelopathy. Lepidium
> latifolium allelopathic research so
> far has failed to isolate the substance (Young et al. 1995a). It also
> alters the soil to favor more halophytic
> plants (Young et al. 1995b).
>
> Its ability to act as a “salt pump” can shift plant composition toward more
> halophytic plants (Blank and
> Young 1997), thereby decreasing diversity. “*Experimental evidence
> suggests that plants extract salts
> from deep soil and deposit them on the soil surface with leaf litter,
> inhibiting the germination and
> growth of other species* (DiTomaso and Healy 2003).
>
> (Source:
> http://sbsc.wr.usgs.gov/research/projects/swepic/SWVMA/PLANTPDF/Lepidium_latifolium_AZ_PAF.pdf
> )
>
> This page says there's no evidence so far of allelopathy:
>
> http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/forb/leplat/all.html
>
>
> Do you know if any of the seeds in your seed mix are salt tolerant?
>
> Alia
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Neil Bertrando
> <neilbertrando@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> thanks for your responses and thoughts on this situation.
>>
>> Thomas, I agree with your statements regarding 'invasive' plants, and this
>> has been our approach from the beginning. I would like nothing more than
>> to
>> demonstrate this concept of the beneficial qualities of invasives in
>> practice, which could lead to alternative methods to the standard spray
>> with
>> herbicides till it can't grow method. This was one of the goals of our
>> project: to provide alternatives. However, we're running up against the
>> difficulty of getting *any* seed to germinate at the site. I'm not
>> 'against' invasives, rather I advocate for 'monoculture mitigation' and
>> improvement of ecosystem processes. We have been using the 'invasive' to
>> mulch the area when mowed, and have some preliminary data that suggest it
>> concentrates boron in its tissues. One thought is to harvest it for
>> ethanol
>> production which would also remove some Boron from the site (although it
>> might create some issues with the Dept of Env. Protection with Boron being
>> distributed via liquid fuel exhaust). We are able to get 4-5 cuttings per
>> year with no irrigation which seems to be a good 'yield'. Cows suffer
>> from
>> a B vitamin deficiency when grazed on it for more than a few days, so
>> that
>> has been a struggle as well (included with other animal mgmt issues at the
>> site). If we had more time to work with the site, we had proposed to use
>> it
>> as small windbreaks to help establish tree belts which could add to the OM
>> litterfall and create microclimates such as shaded areas and snow
>> catchment.
>>
>> We are open to suggestions on strategies that would allow us to
>> 'befriend'
>> this plant in a useful and cost effective manner since it is a major issue
>> in the western US.
>>
>> We don't have M3 tests, our CEC is Ammonium saturation method. currently
>> our Ca % is 60-72% with S-SO4 at 20-60 ppm. not quite the ranges
>> suggested,
>> but how does this compare with the M3 method? Also, since we're trying to
>> work with Soil Food Web methods to increase fungal activity and SO4 is a
>> fungicide, this might be counterproductive to our efforts.
>>
>> Does anyone have a list of labs that provide the M3 method for CEC
>> calculations??? from some extension papers I read, it doesn't look like
>> that much of a better method than the Ammonium Saturation so any
>> explanation
>> of this would be helpful as well.
>>
>> We do not have much more time to work on this site, and we would like to
>> gather as much information as possible to improve our techniques and
>> strategies in application.
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>> Neil
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 3:05 PM, Lawrence F. London, Jr. <
>> venaurafarm@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> > Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] strategies for boron rich and/or hydrophobic
>> soils
>> > Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:23:50 -0400
>> > From: Michael Astera <michael.astera@GMAIL.COM>
>> > Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
>> > <SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>, Michael Astera
>> > <michael.astera@GMAIL.COM>
>> > To: SANET-MG@LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU
>> >
>> > Mike-
>> >
>> > Those making recommendations usually want to work with a soil test
>> method
>> > they are familiar with. I see tests done with many different methods;
>> they
>> > tell different stories and are useful for different purposes. There are
>> a
>> > few private labs in the US, Australia, and Europe that understand and
>> work
>> > with soils based on CEC calculations; I don't know of any government or
>> > university affiliated labs that do so.
>> >
>> > I suggested the M3 method because it's the best one I know of for
>> measuring
>> > actual soil reserves as opposed to what's readily available to the crop.
>> > My
>> > experience has been that when CEC is calculated and the major cations
>> and
>> > other elements (including P) are adjusted/amended using M3 test results,
>> > the
>> > response will be linear, direct, and predictable. That isn't the case
>> with
>> > other tests.
>> >
>> > For soils above pH 7, excess cations will be extracted with the M3
>> solvent;
>> > you have to expect that and take it into account. Above pH 7.5 I would
>> > definitely go with a Ca saturation of 80 or 85% of "calculated" CEC and
>> > maximum Sulfur. That alone will do a lot to compensate for any
>> distortions
>> > caused by free cations in the soil.
>> >
>> > The other option would be to find a lab that first extracted and
>> measured
>> > the free, non-adsorbed cations, and then extracted with the Mehlich 3.
>> > That
>> > would give a better indication of true cation exchange capacity in a
>> high
>> > pH
>> > soil.
>> >
>> > Michael Astera
>> > http://soilminerals.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> > Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more
>> > about this list here:
>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> > Garden Hand Tool Sourcelist and Biointensive Gardening Guide
>> > http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq
>> > permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> > Texas Plant and Soil Lab
>> > http://www.texasplantandsoillab.com/
>> > List contacts: permacultureforum@gmail.com,
>> chrys@thefutureisorganic.netand
>> > paul@richsoil.com
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration or find out more
>> about this list here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Garden Hand Tool Sourcelist and Biointensive Gardening Guide
>> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq
>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> Texas Plant and Soil Lab
>> http://www.texasplantandsoillab.com/
>> List contacts: permacultureforum@gmail.com, chrys@thefutureisorganic.netand
>> paul@richsoil.com
>>
>>
>




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