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  • From: A Sampson-Kelly <april@permaculturevisions.com>
  • To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
  • Subject: [permaculture] deterring Deer
  • Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:11:28 +1100

deterring deer.
One of my students in Humansville MO wrote uses chokes (jerusalem artichokes) to deter the deer, he plants them in a boundary bed of 3m deep and says the deer hate moving through the chokes.
In Sweden they use urine of wolf/dog/man along the roadside to deter them from venturing on the road.
Here we use solar powered electric fencing in a maze set-up so they can't get through easily even if the break a section.

April S-Kelly PermacultureVisions.com



On 2/11/2010 11:37 PM, permaculture-request@lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
2. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer (Paul Cross)
3. Re: hierarchy (Joan Stevens)
4. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
5. Re: Permaculture in Guatemala (Hannah Roessler)
6. moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my (Rain Tenaqiya)
7. Re: hierarchies and networks (Cory Brennan)
8. Re: Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers (Keith Johnson)
9. Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC (L. Santoyo)
10. Re: Fwd: Permaculture in and around Washington, DC
(chauncey williams)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:19:58 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm@bellsouth.net>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
Message-ID:<4CCF04CE.4040204@bellsouth.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles, gophers
or deers.
Deer:

Build a deer fence, non-electrified.
Use 10' posts, cedar or locust or other slow rotting wood or buy
8' (minimum) or 10' Steel T-Posts from farm supply outlets. Place the
posts about 15 feet apart and attach 6' or 7' foot dogwire (2X4 welded
wire fencing, the cheapest available) to it. For additional coverage
weave tree branches (cedar is great) within the fencing for additional
height .
Or just forget the metal fencing components and use wood posts and rails
and weave tree branches within the rails for coverage, replenished as
necessary.

Gophers: trap them, relocate or feed to vultures or compost pile

Voles, never seen one. Moles, lik fire ants are Natures little rototillers


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:13:03 -0600
From: Paul Cross<charybda@newmex.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and Deer
Message-ID:<4CCF032F.9040506@newmex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I've concluded that deer are only fully deterred by physical barriers.
You can cage or wrap individual trees. Or you can fence an entire field,
but it has to be higher than they will jump, and they sure can jump
high! Here I make the fences 7.5'/2.3m tall. I have not had success with
shorter baited electric fences, allegedly deer resistant plantings, or
deterring scents. I'm not sure if keeping dogs is cheaper than fencing,
but a couple of dogs will keep deer away most of the time.

For those subterranean critters, I am sorry to say that trapping and
poisoning are all that has worked here.

In organic certified areas, we use "Black Hole" traps baited with peanut
butter. It is a lot of work finding the main tunnels, setting up traps,
checking the traps, etc. But it is effective. The black hole traps are
easily located by an internet search so you can see what they look like.
They last for years.

You can trench and fence around an area to discourage burrowing animals
from crossing over the area. A trench 2'/60cm deep with wire mesh on one
side will give two means of protection. First, when the pest digs out to
find an open trench their instinct is to plug the hole and turn around.
Next they would not get through the wire mesh if they tried. I have not
tried this technique.

In non-organic areas I got licensed to use aluminum phosphide (aka
Fumitoxin.) But I have yet to actually use it. It is a dangerous
substance (hence the need for training and licensing) but has the
advantage of having little to no danger of a secondary poisoning if
another animal were to find and eat the carcass of the dead rodent. You
have to be careful not to use it where there are burrowing owls using an
abandoned hole. That is easy to see because there will be owl scat
around the burrow. You should also be aware of ferrets it there are
ferrets in your area. You want to keep the ferrets and owls.

Cats, owls, coyotes, and dogs are all a little bit helpful in reducing
voles and gophers. But I have zero tolerance for these pests in any
perennial area. I've lost thousands of dollars due to killed fruit trees
until I decided to trap. I make 100% of my living through growing and
cannot afford to have such losses that those pests can create. I do have
wild areas where those pests are allowed to exist, but they cannot be
tolerated in production areas.

Paul Cross



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joan Stevens<mamabotanica@sbcglobal.net>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchy
Message-ID:<121264.26346.qm@web81201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

I am jumping in where I have little background on where the?conversation has
gone - the hazards of those who only?pop into this listserve every once in a
while.

There are some great?examples of hierarchy in the natural world.? How about
the
way your body works - an assemblage of organs and systems that are
controlled/prioritized by the brain (mostly)?? Or?a lovely example from?Janine
Benyus (author of Biomimicry) of how muscle tissue is organized - smaller
bundles arranged into?larger groups that all?perform their specific function
in
service to the larger whole (also ultimately directed by the nervous
system/brain).

Anyway, I'm a fan for not following any dogma about the "right way" to
organize.? Seems like as permaculturists we ought to be flexible enough to
recognize that difference purposes also require different kinds of structure.
I
wouldn't want my body organized by consensus.? You think?your digits would
willingly give themselves up to save?your core body temperature?? Doubt it.
and
sometimes that's what's required to save the organism.
My $.02
Joan

?"...the greatest change we need to make is from consumption to production,
even
if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10% of us do this, there is
enough for everyone.
Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no gardens, who depend on the
very system they attack, and who produce words and bullets, not food and
shelter."



- Bill Mollison


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
Message-ID:<840321.13634.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Standards only become isms when they are ossified or become controlled by
entrenched, heirarchical vested interests and people forget where those
standards came from. How about as part of the standards, we create

1. a review and evolution process based on results and workability, so that
the subject can continue to evolve as appropriate

2. a curriculum that enables people to think with the subject rather than
rotely learn it

#2 is one reason we focus on teaching principles of permaculture as the core
curriculum, focusing on showing how many ways and in how many sectors they can be
applied. Once one understands the basic laws of natural systems, and how to observe
those systems, one is not nearly as likely to fall for "isms".

If we focus on achieving multiple intelligence understanding of natural systems, we create life
long students of those systems, rather than students of "isms". The only real way to
apply permaculture is by observing the system, there is no way around it. That is why I'm so
thrilled with this subject, because to the degree we do that, we cannot end up with an
"ism."

Cory



--- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:03 AM

Both your messages are important things to consider. I
suspect that if a standard of organization is implemented
for permaculture it will be a sign that it has become an
"ism" instead of a way of living. The ism tends to become a
creature unto itself, and the original goals can suffer as a
result.

Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:25:26 -0400
From: lflj@bellsouth.net
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks

On 10/31/2010 5:54 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
One subject we touched on in the recent
certification thread was new and old tools for change, and
the difference
between hierarchical and decentralized
organizations and tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes
for decentralized
leadership tools, like consensus, but was
disappointed by how rarely they live up to their promise.
I've been
skeptical of the value of these and similar
methods to actually produce change, and have found the
older
tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at
least as effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions
of these
tools to exclusive).
They say that the world is run by those who show up.
And, freedom of the press belong to those who own
one.
However, these thoughts have been circulating lately:
a permaculture heirarchical oversight organization
that offers, like a governmental agencies that have no
teeth and only can offer recommendations at best to
those who do have the power to put laws, rule and
regulations in place.
You vote with your feet. Permaculture teachers,
organizations, consultants and designers and anyone who
would hire a
permaculture professional simply could require that
they have proven expertise, knowledge and a certificate(s)
of having
completed training and fieldwork before being hired.
This phoo could help those professionals in training by
offering a
set of permaculture standards, similar to the Organic
Rule for USDA certified organic farms and an outline and
description of standard coursework that should be
required of anyone seeking status as a certified
permaculture
professional. This process could be elevated to
community college and university level coursework.
Do read my suggestion about the need to recognize and
help those who cannot afford any training but want to play a

significant role in their communities as permaculture
mentors, teachers, activists (political too, if necessary),
consultants, designers and local practitioners within
a growing community of like-minded individuals (this would
be so
important to so many, just think about that if you're
thinking about ways to make waves for forge the future).
I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker
magazines this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an
article that
fits right in to this conversation, "Small
Change" by Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book
"The Tipping
Point" and in general being a whole systems
thinker. He's made the points I would have liked to have
made. I was
intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good
for doing design, and that they are better at preserving the
status
quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the
article.
"Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and
procedures, networks aren?t controlled by a single central
authority.
Decisions are made through consensus, and the
ties that bind people to the group are loose. This structure
makes
networks enormously resilient and adaptable in
low-risk situations. Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
"The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
wants to
frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
taking on a
powerful and organized establishment you have to
be a hierarchy . . . .
Wonderful thinking!

LL
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:06:22 -0400
From: Hannah Roessler<hannahroessler@hotmail.com>
To:<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
Message-ID:<COL106-W529752614348E5502970C2CC480@phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi there,
Try Roni Lec at IMAP, near San Lucas Toliman.

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 08:30:21 -0700
From: daveyisdavey@yahoo.com
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala

please i am looking for some folks practicing in Guatemala.

if you are there yourself or were there once before or know someone who is
there
or know someone who was there.... please contact me.

thanks!



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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rain Tenaqiya<raincascadia@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] moles, voles, gophers, and deer, oh my
Message-ID:<477155.92191.qm@web65812.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1






The first permaculture principle that comes to mind here is to turn a problem
into a solution: eat them.? If you can't bring yourself to do that than my
experience with each of these is the following:
?
1.? Moles- aren't much of a problem except where they mess up foundations,
paths, or greywater pipes, etc.? They are carnivores and pretty much leave
plants alone.? If necessary, underground mole traps or a cat work pretty well.
?
2.? Voles- the bane of my existence, making it very difficult to establish
trees and impossible to have an annual garden.? Trapping is the only
guaranteed solution for an annual garden, but a cat can be good enough for
perennials.? Vole population and behavior vary widely by climate, vegetation,
population dynamics, etc.? I am in a Mediterranean climate with oak
savannah.? Simply observe where voles are currently active and put regular
mouse traps in their tunnels and paths, covered with buckets or pots to keep
out cats and to make a safer-feeling environment for the voles.? The traps
with the wide plastic ramp-triggers work best.? Trees and other perennials
must be planted with aviary wire all the way around their roots and?the upper
six inches of trunk?to be totally safe, though I often just use plastic
bottles with their bottoms cut out around small plants, with three or more
inches sticking above the ground for small or cheap plants that
voles seem less interested in.? During dips in the vole population, you can
sometimes get trees or shrubs established without much trouble, but this is
very risky and voles have been known to topple mature trees like figs.
?
3.? Gophers- similar to voles, though fewer in number, thus making them
easier to trap.? Traps usually must be specifically made for voles and all
tunnels are underground, making the setting of traps trickier and more
laborious.?
?
4.? Deer- fencing deer is the only long-term solution, other than killing
them.? Depending on the topography and population density, fencing must be
more or less elaborate.? I've used two inch mesh chicken wire on posts set 15
ft apart with the fencing only six feet high with few problems.? The plastic
fencing also works great, though degrades faster if in the sun.? Eight ft is
recommended in more densely populated areas, though you can get away with
shorter fencing by putting lines of twine above the fencing, spaced every ft
or so.? White flagging helps the deer see the twine.? Two four foot high
barriers spaced four feet apart also works, and one or both of these can be
hedges, so fencing can be reduced by live barriers over time.? Dense bamboo
can work, for example.? Fencing with ground receding on the outside works
better than the opposite.? Less sturdy fencing requires more observation and
maintenance.? Trained dogs can also keep deer
away.
?
For trees out in the open, I've used five ft high fencing cut in seven ft
pieces to make rounds that are secured on one or more stakes.? This is the
minimum protection trees need to grow above the browse level, and most
branches within the fence will eventually get chewed off by the deer.? I
often have to use sticks to direct the branches up and away from the
fencing.? Wider fencing would be better, but would require more stakes.?
Eventually, the fencing can be removed, but you need to watch for deer
destroying the trunks by rubbing their antlers on them during the rutting
season (Fall).? This is more common in open country, and may require
basically permanent wire mesh or other barriers on the trunks.
?
Keep in mind that everything I've said is from my experience on the US West Coast, and
conditions may be different elsewhere.? Also beware of gimmicky recommendations like
putting scents out to deter beasts, or those silly solar vibrator things (which may
work on a limited scale when move around frequently).? For real subsistence food
growing situations, "easy" solutions will not work over time, in my
experience.
?
Good luck,
?
Rain




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cory Brennan<cory8570@yahoo.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
Message-ID:<4414.1313.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

In some of the projects I've been involved with, we haven't had time to get
consensus - there were too many life and death situations and sometimes we
just acted without asking anybody, because we knew what to do to save lives
and even simply explaining to someone who didn't understand it or agree with
it would take too long.

In less grim situations, I've seen consensus minus one, or 85% majority, or
other non-unanimous varieties work well and not be abused, personally. Maybe
it is the groups I've been in. We never used it to ignore the concerns of the
holdout - part of the deal was to allow the dissenting parties to state why
they are dissenting. I found that people would communicate to that person
after the meeting and continue to try to work with the person to meet their
concerns. In one case, the person was clearly intent on disrupting the
activities of the group to get what they wanted, and we asked the person to
leave, but only after giving them several chances to work it out. The project
could have been seriously disrupted if we had continued to try to accomodate
this individual. I do not feel that one person should be able to hold up the
forward progress of an entire group if the rest of them are working smoothly
together and making progress toward a mutual goal. That
person should, instead, find a group he/she can agree with and work with.
There are lots of tribes out there!

I like that juries must reach consensus to convict. There are certain
decisions that I feel consensus should be used to make. Being able to discuss
a matter and reach consensus on it is a very useful skill set, but I've also
found hierarchies quite useful.

Cory

--- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:00 AM

I wonder if the division between heirarchy and
decentralization is sometimes too "either-or", when small,
decentralized heirarchies may be an avenue to use strong
leadership. Consensus without strong individuals can
SOMETIMES lead to weak groups, vulnerable to outside
conditions that end up "steering the drifting boat".
I do think that small heirarchies that are limited in their
vertical intgration must have a common theme to be
effective, be it philosophical, spiritual, familial, or
other. But then, groups using consensus also need that
cohesion. Also necessary for those limited heirarchies is
the true willingness of the leadership to consult and listen
to all members, with real inclusiveness. This is probably
less possible if a group exceeds fifty or so members.
One ptfall I found that ruined several groups run by
consensus was the silly idea of "consensus minus one" which
was promoted as a way to avoid being bogged down by a
stick-in-the-mud individual but always became a way of
ignoring the wisdom or concerns of the last holdout to
consensus. Consensus minus one is nothing like consensus and
denatures the whole purpose.
How do other permaculture groups deal with this?

From: toby@patternliteracy.com
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:09 -0700
To: permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks

One subject we touched on in the recent certification
thread was new and old tools for change, and the difference
between hierarchical and decentralized organizations and
tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes for decentralized
leadership tools, like consensus, but was disappointed by
how rarely they live up to their promise. I've been
skeptical of the value of these and similar methods to
actually produce change, and have found the older
tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at least as
effective (though I still prefer inclusive versions of these
tools to exclusive).
I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker magazines
this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an article that
fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change" by
Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book "The
Tipping Point" and in general being a whole systems thinker.
He's made the points I would have liked to have made. I was
intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good for doing
design, and that they are better at preserving the status
quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the article.
"Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and procedures,
networks aren?t controlled by a single central authority.
Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties that bind
people to the group are loose. This structure makes networks
enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk situations.
Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
"There are many things, though, that networks don?t
do well. Car companies sensibly use a network to organize
their hundreds of suppliers, but not to design their cars.
No one believes that the articulation of a coherent design
philosophy is best handled by a sprawling, leaderless
organizational system. Because networks don?t have a
centralized leadership structure and clear lines of
authority, they have real difficulty reaching consensus and
setting goals. They can?t think strategically; they are
chronically prone to conflict and error. How do you make
difficult choices about tactics or strategy or philosophical
direction when everyone has an equal say?
"The Palestine Liberation Organization originated as a
network, and the international-relations scholars Mette
Eilstrup-Sangiovanni and Calvert Jones argue in a recent
essay in International Security that this is why it ran into
such trouble as it grew: ?Structural features typical of
networks?the absence of central authority, the unchecked
autonomy of rival groups, and the inability to arbitrate
quarrels through formal mechanisms?made the P.L.O.
excessively vulnerable to outside manipulation and internal
strife.?
"In Germany in the nineteen-seventies, they go on,
?the far more unified and successful left-wing terrorists
tended to organize hierarchically, with professional
management and clear divisions of labor." . . . They seldom
betrayed their comrades in arms during police
interrogations. Their counterparts on the right were
organized as decentralized networks, and had no such
discipline. These groups were regularly infiltrated, and
members, once arrested, easily gave up their comrades.
Similarly, Al Qaeda was most dangerous when it was a unified
hierarchy. Now that it has dissipated into a network, it has
proved far less effective.
"The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if the
network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it just
wants to frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or if it
doesn?t need to think strategically. But if you?re
taking on a powerful and organized establishment you have to
be a hierarchy . . . .
"But [network-based activism] is simply a form of
organizing which favors the weak-tie connections that give
us access to information over the strong-tie connections
that help us persevere in the face of danger. It shifts our
energies from organizations that promote strategic and
disciplined activity and toward those which promote
resilience and adaptability. It makes it easier for
activists to express themselves, and harder for that
expression to have any impact. The instruments of social
media are well suited to making the existing social order
more efficient. They are not a natural enemy of the status
quo. If you are of the opinion that all the world needs is a
little buffing around the edges, this should not trouble
you. But if you think that there are still lunch counters
out there that need integrating [Gladwell mentioned civil
rights activists] it ought to give you pause."
The full article is at
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all

Toby
http://patternliteracy.com



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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:29:42 -0400
From: Keith Johnson<keithdj@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture<permaculture@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers and deers
Message-ID:<4CCF5B76.9050206@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

To repel voles, moles and gophers, plant lots of daffodils and
narcissus, especially as part of a fruit tree guild. This will not get
rid of them but will help prevent the voles in particular from
munching roots of favored trees / shrubs. If you are in Ca and dealing
with pocket gophers, the bulbs will help but planting in buried wire
"cages" was the standard way landscapers dealt with the problem.
Hardware stores out there carried them in a variety of sizes. Moles do
not generally eat roots but rather grubs and worms. They stir the soil
quite effectively. For example I just harvested about 6 buckets of
beautiful mole (or gopher) diggings from the edge of my compost heap.
A.P. Thompson, a Virginia orchardist, developed the practice of
back-filling fruit tree plantings with a gravel and soil mix as a way
to discourage rodents. I've tried it and it seems to work. You'll want
to use sharp gravel rather than a rounded pea gravel. You can also
trap them with various devices. I've heard of folks putting a hose on
their muffler and gassing them with CO (carbon monoxide). I
encountered folks in CA who were using a VERY high-powered vacuum
cleaner to suck them out of the ground. Some people swear that leaving
juicy fruit gum in their tunnels screws up their intestines but I have
not confirmed this.

See this link for a trick I haven't tried using "castor bean oil
granules".
http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/no-more-gophers-or-moles/index.html

I also grow castor beans and a plant called gopher spurge
(Eurphobiaceae) which may or may not repel them, but are fun to grow
anyway. I've even had deer EAT castor bean plants (which are quite
toxic, especially the seed).

Fencing for the deer is my best choice as I don't have a dog.

On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or deter voles, moles, gophers
or deers.
Thanks for the help.




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